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Yes, grid fees should be a flat payment based on your max power draw in the last year. Or maybe a time dependent fee that reflects current power grid congestion

Yes, grid fees should be a flat payment based on your max power draw in the last year. Or maybe a time dependent fee that reflects current power grid congestion. Certainly not something that simply scales with the energy consumed.

Analemma_ 3y ago
Most utilities, including I assume California's, do have a flat component of the total bill to cover operational expenses like salaries, the fixed cost of infrastructure, hedging against huge spot price spikes, etc. In my case (Pacific Northwest), this amounts to about one-sixth of my total bill. But having 100% of your bill be a flat fee would just be crazy: there'd be no incentive to conserve energy and "based on max power draw" would encourage people to use 100% of their possible consumption all the time.
- konschubert 3y ago
  You misunderstood me. The GRID FEES should be flat. They are just one component of the price that is charged by the utility, and currently they are charged per kWh consumed. The POWER PRICE should of course scale with the kWh that are being consumed - either as a fixed price, or better with a component that depends on the time of the day or the actual market price.
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    Part of the grid is scaling with power usage, so I think it makes sense that someone who uses more power has to pay more for grid upgrades/maintenance.
    - konschubert 3y ago
      Grid is scaling with max power draw at times of congestion. Congestion is heavily correlated across consumers, so you cannot prevent it by charging higher marginal power costs. (Like mobile carriers do with data)
      - ThatPlayer 3y ago
        Isn't that the same idea as charging more at certain times of the day? We can bake grid fees into those peak hours. Then if there is equal usage between all consumers like you say, then everyone would get charged equally for the grid . Functionally the same as a fixed price.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  FWIW I'm in California and my bill is totally based on usage (although not linearly). However in a few years the state is moving towards adding an income-based fee
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    I'm on SCE in California and I pay about $0.73 per day in "Basic Charges" (about $23/mo) if I use zero power. There are also grid-related charges (including a wildfire fund charge) that are usage-based on the order of $0.03/kWh. For my usage (about 1MWh per month) that means half the grid charges are flat and half are from usage. For comparison, my TOU energy rates range from $0.06 to $0.25 per kWh depending on the season and time of day.
Scoundreller 3y ago
Larger consumers usually do pay demand charges. In the UK, they had some method to charge based on a retrospective look of when the grid had the largest demand and your contribution to it, so some firms were set up to help you predict this and reduce your usage at those points. > The UK’s demand charge price is based on its ‘Triad’ system. ‘Triads’ are three, half-hour periods in the UK winter when energy demand is at its highest. > The Triad dates must be at least ten days apart. They typically fall on weekdays, between 4 pm-7 pm, November to February and during periods of cold weather. The National Grid often has to fire up expensive coal and gas-powered stations to meet industrial and domestic demand during these windows. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/how-to-reduce-commercial-electricity-demand-charges-20200910/?amp https://www.greenoptimistic.com/how-to-reduce-commercial-ele... This all makes sense for larger users but the costs of smartmetering on light users has been a bit of a farce in Ontario Canada where the costs were real and the load shifting was not.

Analemma_ 3y ago

Most utilities, including I assume California's, do have a flat component of the total bill to cover operational expenses like salaries, the fixed cost of infrastructure, hedging against huge spot price spikes, etc. In my case (Pacific Northwest), this amounts to about one-sixth of my total bill. But having 100% of your bill be a flat fee would just be crazy: there'd be no incentive to conserve energy and "based on max power draw" would encourage people to use 100% of their possible consumption all the time.

konschubert 3y ago
You misunderstood me. The GRID FEES should be flat. They are just one component of the price that is charged by the utility, and currently they are charged per kWh consumed. The POWER PRICE should of course scale with the kWh that are being consumed - either as a fixed price, or better with a component that depends on the time of the day or the actual market price.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  Part of the grid is scaling with power usage, so I think it makes sense that someone who uses more power has to pay more for grid upgrades/maintenance.
  - konschubert 3y ago
    Grid is scaling with max power draw at times of congestion. Congestion is heavily correlated across consumers, so you cannot prevent it by charging higher marginal power costs. (Like mobile carriers do with data)
    - ThatPlayer 3y ago
      Isn't that the same idea as charging more at certain times of the day? We can bake grid fees into those peak hours. Then if there is equal usage between all consumers like you say, then everyone would get charged equally for the grid . Functionally the same as a fixed price.
Rebelgecko 3y ago
FWIW I'm in California and my bill is totally based on usage (although not linearly). However in a few years the state is moving towards adding an income-based fee
- aidenn0 3y ago
  I'm on SCE in California and I pay about $0.73 per day in "Basic Charges" (about $23/mo) if I use zero power. There are also grid-related charges (including a wildfire fund charge) that are usage-based on the order of $0.03/kWh. For my usage (about 1MWh per month) that means half the grid charges are flat and half are from usage. For comparison, my TOU energy rates range from $0.06 to $0.25 per kWh depending on the season and time of day.

Scoundreller 3y ago

Larger consumers usually do pay demand charges. In the UK, they had some method to charge based on a retrospective look of when the grid had the largest demand and your contribution to it, so some firms were set up to help you predict this and reduce your usage at those points. > The UK’s demand charge price is based on its ‘Triad’ system. ‘Triads’ are three, half-hour periods in the UK winter when energy demand is at its highest. > The Triad dates must be at least ten days apart. They typically fall on weekdays, between 4 pm-7 pm, November to February and during periods of cold weather. The National Grid often has to fire up expensive coal and gas-powered stations to meet industrial and domestic demand during these windows. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/how-to-reduce-commercial-electricity-demand-charges-20200910/?amp https://www.greenoptimistic.com/how-to-reduce-commercial-ele... This all makes sense for larger users but the costs of smartmetering on light users has been a bit of a farce in Ontario Canada where the costs were real and the load shifting was not.