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2024 could be the year the PC dumps x86 for Arm, thanks to Windows 12
- ramijames 3y agoMore likely: it will not. My gut says that Microsoft, at an institution level, can not coordinate and build software at scale because they have two opposing requirements: 1. Legacy software must continue to work 2. Rewriting large swathes of the OS is not in scope MS will continue to add new paint jobs to the UI, more confusing layers for settings, and other "killer features" like ads in your OS, AI, and search that searches everything but your files until the world moves on to some upstart alternative with less baggage.
- Geisterde 3y agoIm not convinced microsoft is capable of doing anything successfully aside from pissing on their userbases shoes while hiring contractors to do all the heavy lifting. Im skeptical that they have the technical expertise to do anything deeper than making a chaotic UI.
- flohofwoe 3y agoThere are different tribes within Microsoft, maybe if the Windows kernel team is still functional they might be able to pull it off (I would be surprised if they hadn't the kernel working on ARM all along, and Windows NT originally was a multi-architecture operating system (according to Wikipedia: initially 32-bit x86, DEC Alpha, MIPS and then later PowerPC, Itanium, ARM(!), and 64-bit x86). If the same people who are now responsible for the Windows desktop are also responsible for the actual tech stuff, then god help us all though ;)
- kevindamm 3y agoI vaguely remember a version of Windows 10 getting released for RaspPi a few years ago...
- circuit10 3y agoWindows already runs on ARM, it’s just not very popular but Microsoft has ARM variants of some of its Surface devices Edit: From the article: “Microsoft obviously already does Arm-compatible builds of Windows.”
- dagaci 3y agoMicrosoft has transitioned from 16bit DOS, to 16bit windows, to hybrid win95, full 32bit to 64bit architectures. All with mostly seamless backwards compatibility, this with billions of active users running literally 1000s of different configurations. I would love to know what you mean by ‘inability to build and coordinate software at scale’
- vl 3y agoAnd also made it work on IA64, Alpha, PPC and MIPS.
- badsectoracula 3y agoThat was a different, much smaller and more agile Microsoft, with a different leadership and MUCH smaller software base. Of all those you mentioned, the 32bit to 64bit architecture would be the most relevant but even that was almost two decades ago and there was hardware support for existing programs to keep working (and Windows 32bit programs are still released and used to this day). Keep in mind that the problem isn't having Windows build and run on an Arm chip - they already have that - but having all existing programs keep working as they did on the new chip without any perceived loss of functionality and performance. And aside from Microsoft, i do not see Intel and AMD to stay still and go "oh well, it was nice while it lasted". IMO of everything mentioned in the article, the most realistic option is for Microsoft to have the next Xbox use ARM chips instead of x86 as they'll have little existing backwards compatibility concerns (and can always benefit by selling existing games again for a new console :-P).
- goosedragons 3y agoThey already did that. Most legacy x86, x64 Windows software runs on the ARM version of Windows 11. Most or all of the OS is written for ARM, remember they basically had that done with Windows RT. What has been missing is good performance. The best Windows ARM devices available now are like low end Intel level devices that then lose more performance through compatibility layers. What's needed is both better CPUs/GPUs (+ drivers for games) and 3rd parties to write ARM software. Even Office has an ARM64 version already.
- mycall 3y agoIf Microsoft could backport some of the ARM64 work they did for their Azure platform into Windows 12, it should be a wonderful transition.
- ch_123 3y agoA) Most of the OS is portable code (go and look at the list of platforms which Windows NT and later have been sold on) B) Microsoft's x86 emulation on ARM is surprisingly good (based on my personal experience of running Windows 11 on Parallels on an M1 Mac)
- mycall 3y ago> Rewriting large swathes of the OS is not in scope Is this impossible for AI to do the majority of the work, then let specialists make it work?
- fragmede 3y agoAs it stands right now, this instant, AI isn't good enough to do that in a sufficiently automated fashion so as to replace entire swaths of OS code, making that infeasible. I say right now this instant because the state of the art (SOTA) is rapidly evolving, and so it's entirely possible that will be possible by the end of 2024, given how fast things have moved in the 13 months since ChatGPT was released.
- fortran77 3y agoWhat a crazy, absurd take. Windows 11 already runs nearly flawlessly on Arm. I'm running Arm windows right now!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fortran77 3y agoI bought a Lenovo x13s because I wanted a lightweight laptop for travel when I didn’t need much horsepower. This thing far exceeds my expectations. I tought it would only be a "light travel" laptop, but I use it almost all the time. I'm using it right now. It does not feel slow, almost everything just works (the exception is things that have device drivers that aren’t shipped with Windows 11) and I really can get 20 hours of battery. I used to be an Intel fanboy—never even had an AMD machine—-but I don’t think I’ll ever get an Intel laptop again.
- thangngoc89 3y agoFor other readers, Lenovo x13s has Snapdragon chip inside. How is the software compatibility?
- fortran77 3y agoEverything works except for some oddball ham-radio software that has drivers and--weirdly enough--Acronis True Image. I switched to Uranium backup for image backup. Windows 11, web browsing, remote desktop work fine, and I even do some coding in Visual Studio C#/C# on it.
- kcb 3y agoI recently picked up a nice spec refurb on eBay with 32GB RAM for <$500. Also, really liking it and have been using it as my primary laptop for a few weeks. Fanless really makes a laptop more usable. Can have it on bed without worrying about clogging up the intake. I've also used it to play World of Warcraft on the go again with no annoying fan noise. WoW actually has a native arm64 support on Windows, so that works very well.
- simbolit 3y agoI have heard bad things about the keyboard, compared to legacy Thinkpads. How is your experience?
- dfgfek 3y agoI only use Windows because it lets me run x86 binaries. If that's not the case any more why would I use Windows?
- Retr0id 3y agoWhat makes you think Windows is dropping support for x86 binaries?
- blueflow 3y agoBecause instruction set emulation is generally pretty slow.
- drvdevd 3y agoI haven’t done any objective tests but I frequently run Windows 11 on ARM via Parallels on macOS and - it’s kinda insane (subjectively) how fast it is. Emulated x86 code is pretty fast there as well - I can easily get a solid 60 FPS on some x86 steam games as well.
- blueflow 3y ago60 FPS for some steam games, very nice. Now lets see how fast an x86 electron app runs.
- meepmorp 3y agoIt works surprisingly well for x86 electron apps. It's kind of amazing how fast and bug free it is, in general.
- Retr0id 3y agoI used Discord in Rosetta 2 for a while before there was a proper aarch64 build, it was fine.
- gedy 3y agoIsn't the point of electron to be cross platform? (I get a company may have not released an ARM build or wherever, but seems an odd choice for emulated performance comparison)
- mogoh 3y ago> Apple's Arm cores now have significantly higher performance per clock cycle than any traditional x86 PC processor. I am not an expert but this claim sounds way to high.
- tenebrisalietum 3y agothe claim probably does not include server processors, if that may make a difference.
- dagmx 3y agoServer cores don’t tend to have more perf per clock on a single core. They scale by having multiple cores. So I’m not sure this matters because the statement in question is per core.
- The_Colonel 3y agoARM is also a bit of cargo cult. Apple CPUs are efficient and performant, other ARM CPUs not so much. If it's really the ISA or other "secret" Apple sauce, which makes all the difference, is not completely clear.
- hypercube33 3y agoAlso some things to consider is that apple dropped the majority of legacy software support and runs native arm64 code for a majority of apps. also somewhere I saw that amd64 is better performance per watt than m2 or m3
- minimaul 3y agoI have a 35W AMD 5750GE (zen 3, 8c16t), along with M1, M1 Max and M2 Pro devices - the AMD processor and M1/M2 chips trade blows depending on workload. It’s absolutely possible to get x86_64 to the same power/performance envelope as apple’s M series chips :)
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- laweijfmvo 3y agoApple has had success switching micro architectures twice now because 1. they write a performant translator to run old apps on the new chips 2. they move to a faster processor On the non-apple front, Qualcomm isn’t making faster chips than Intel or AMD; even the best translators are going to be very slow running legacy apps
- jonhohle 3y agoApple also had an earlier transition from Motorola 68K to PowerPC.
- Findecanor 3y agoThe current line of Mac OS has its roots in NeXTSTEP which started on a Motorola 68030 with MMU, and then also ran on HP PA-RISC, SPARC and Intel 386. When Apple later transitioned from PowerPC to x86, it was rumoured that they had been maintaining the x86 port all along.
- minimaul 3y agohttps://www.quora.com/Apple-company/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well https://www.quora.com/Apple-company/How-does-Apple-keep-secr... Is very interesting reading on the x86 port of Mac OS.
- addicted 3y agoIt’s also important to recognize that Apple transitions after their current processors are, intentionally or unintentionally, far behind the state of the art in processor power. When Apple transitioned to Intel the PowerPC platform was way behind on a performance basis. In this case it wasn’t deliberate. But when it transitioned from Intel to ARM, Apple was again way behind on performance compared to contemporary competitors, making the transition look better than if it was up to date. If Apple had been at the forefront of Intel CPUs, the transition would have looked like a slight loss in performance for tremendous increases in battery life which most would have been happy with. But they weren’t so it looked like an increase in performance along with an increase in battery life, which made the transition a no brainer for Apple. And they were able to do this because they tightly couple their OS with the hardware, so they can control the transition without having, say Acer stick macOS on a laptop that makes the M1 not look as great as the previous Apple Intel Mac.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- spintin 3y agoI doubt M$ can displace linux at this point for anything but consumption. To produce value you need to get away from bloat, not embrace it. Linux has it's problems too, but it's open; so we can fix them. Microsoft can't be fixed.
- ehutch79 3y agoWhat’s the replacement for after effects? All those vsts, or the DAWs they run in.
- spintin 3y agoAfter Effects and DAWs, yes thank you for proving my point.
- ehutch79 3y agoThat all windows can best linux at is consumption? There's a lot of production software that maybe runs under wine/proton/etc with a lot of work. How does that prove your point? This stuff doesn't have really viable alternatives, that people who use it as a day job really would consider an alternative.
- ehutch79 3y agoThen there’s stuff like solid works. Also, here’s an experiment for you, pull some random 50 something from an Hr or accounting department, sit them in front of a laptop and have them do their job on Linux.
- treyd 3y agoThey wouldn't be PCs if they aren't on x86, just call them computers.
- monooso 3y agoPC is an abbreviation of Personal Computer. The processor is irrelevant.
- hulitu 3y ago> PC is an abbreviation of Personal Computer. The processor is irrelevant. The processor (mostly) is. The architecture, not so.
- monooso 3y agoDictionaries disagree [1] > A personal computer is a computer that is used by one person at a time in a business, a school, or at home. The abbreviation PC is also used. [1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/personal-computer https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/persona...
- Retr0id 3y agoEven x86 PCs have long since dropped any pretenses of having native back-compat with the legacy "IBM PC" platform.
- treyd 3y agoIt's still very possible to install classic real mode PC OSes on modern hardware.
- Retr0id 3y agoNope! Modern systems don't ship with BIOS CSMs anymore, and won't even let you boot 32-bit applications let alone 16. Intel also wants to drop real mode entirely https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/envisioning-future-simplified-architecture.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/t...
- tibbydudeza 3y agoNot unless Qualcomm Oryon manages to match Apple M1 performance levels for less than a Ryzen/Intel mobile CPU.
- MBCook 3y agoI believe they’re claiming better than M2, I don’t think M3 was out when they claimed that. We’ll see.
- tibbydudeza 3y agoIt is a repurposed server chip so it is going to cost insane like their previous attempts - the ARM Thinkpad X13s was priced way too expensive to take a risk of not going Intel/AMD.
- WBrentWilliams 3y agoI remain cautiously optimistic. However, Windows will still be Windows. Have a throw-back to 1997: https://www.josephpalmer.com/view/box.shtml https://www.josephpalmer.com/view/box.shtml It is still dark inside that box. And the big boxes that count? Still locked in a dark room.
- taimurkazmi 3y agoSpeaking of dumping x86, what about that Itanium all the kids were talking about? :P
- snvzz 3y agoNot a chance. RISC-V exists now.