5 ms·
Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?
- motoboi 3y agoA great achiever (much more than Bach IMHO) was Émile Littrè, the French author of several massive works but better known as the author of Dictionnaire de la langue française.
- pndy 3y agohe probably was since we're wondering 5 times already; last time 2 weeks ago: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=Is+Bach+the+greatest+achiever+of+all+time%3F&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- timost 3y agoI'm not affiliated or anything but The Great Courses' "Bach and the High Baroque" [0] course is a great Series on Bach (Robert Greenbert's courses are great overall). 0: https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/bach-and-the-high-baroque https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/bach-and-the-high-ba...
- dakial1 3y agoNot ready to throw 300usd on audio. Is there any good podcast with the history of music?
- lettergram 3y agoYou can get it on audible for 1 credit or free
- FredPret 3y agoCheck out Wondrium - CAD20 per month for I think the entire Great Courses catalogue
- RobinL 3y agoSeconded, I'm not particularly a fan of classical music but all of his lectures are really excellent
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- lordnacho 3y agoI feel like I have to channel my old math teacher. It was Euler. He also lived without electricity, and went blind too. And yet he figured out a huge amount of interesting stuff, roughly corresponding with high school math. Euler also moved across countries.
- tmtvl 3y agoHow's the saying go, everything that wasn't invented by Euler was invented by Gauss?
- geertj 3y agoThe saying we had in my uni is that most math discoveries are named after the second person to publish them, because we can’t name everything after Euler.
- joaquincabezas 3y agoand without ChatGPT…
- vkazanov 3y agoMath-wise Euler was more about establishing standard approaches than anything else. In addition to that, his contributions to graph theory and topology were substantial if not defining. His contributions in physics were truly groundbreaking, a lot of traditional theoretical mechanics is coming from him mostly. And not even all of his works in Latin were translated yet...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throw0101b 3y agoAround the year 2000, amongst the other things that were going on, it was also the 250th anniversary of Bach's death. Someone at the record label Teldec got the bright idea to release the entirely of Bach's work, and so a 153-disc box set was produced: * https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/the-complete-bach-edition https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/the-complete-b... * https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Apr13/Bach_collection_2564661127.htm https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Apr13/B... * https://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00001IV8B https://www.amazon.com/Bach-2000-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00001I... A few years later they released a digital copy, with all the music made MP3s on a USB stick, with PDFs of the booklets: * https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/apr/17/complete-bach-edition-usb-review https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/apr/17/complete-bach-... Edit: Somewhat related, is the All of Bach project: > All of Bach is a project of the Netherlands Bach Society with the aim to perform and record all of Bach's works and share them online with the world for free. With the finest recordings, performed at special locations and with great attention to image and sound. Don't want to miss a recording of All of Bach? Then subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you would like to help us complete All of Bach, please consider a donation. * https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach * https://www.youtube.com/@bach https://www.youtube.com/@bach * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Bach_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Bach_Society
- sbrother 3y agoDeutsche Grammophon produced something similar recently, which I was lucky enough to get for Christmas last year: https://www.bach333.com/en/ https://www.bach333.com/en/ It is stunning in every way; I highly recommend it for any Bach fans!
- greenpresident 3y agoA playlist destroys the magic of the monumental achievement that this represents but visualizes the quantity pretty well: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4jjc7SCCeXZ0PmvnKZgjpx?si=HEx8HGgHRm6DX7qPtkOB1Q&pi=e-LCXkbK8wQSab https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4jjc7SCCeXZ0PmvnKZgjpx?si=... 750 performers contributed to 260 hours of recordings. The three hours I rounded up would represent a major part of some other‘s work.
- kdwikzncba 3y ago[flagged]
- resource0x 3y agoIndeed. Due to their deep understanding of a wide range of subjects, some HN commenters amassed such an extraordinary amount of likes that puts Bach to shame.
- Jensson 3y ago> a lot of people on HN talk out of their ass. Most written books are just people talking out of their ass as well, history is full of people publishing bullshit.
- notahacker 3y agoFair I meam Aristotle is a strong candidate for "greatest achiever of all time", being a true polymath who arguably contributed to or invented every school of intellectual thought in existence at the time his contributions were valued for centuries. But in between the seminal stuff on logic and ethics, his writings on the metabolism were a right load of old nonsense. And I bet his HN account would be an absolute riot!
- eterevsky 3y ago> 9. Never experiencing true defeat or setback I don't think this is correct. Bach was seeking a position of court composer (like Handel) and even sent his 6 Brandenburg Concertos to Margrave of Brandenburg-Schwedt in 1721. He didn't get the position. Brandenburg Concertos are some of his best works and I can't imagine how much top-quality secular music he could have written if he got the position.
- nathell 3y agoAlso, why on earth would this metric be important? Failure is a fact of life; one needs to experience it many, many times on the road to grandmastery. I’m pretty sure Bach had. It makes more sense to cherish than deplore it.
- jonstewart 3y ago> I would include the following metrics as relevant for that designation: > > 1. Quality of work. It’s like Cowen can’t help himself at this point. The world would be better served if he spent more time reviewing ethnic restaurants than publishing thoughtfarts like this. I guess it’s a better use of Koch Brothers money than their usual pursuits, at least.
- mgaunard 3y agoNo. (Betteridge's law of headlines, etc.)
- acosmism 3y agoI am damn sure i will get down-voted here but...drake
- tempodox 3y agoWhich one, Nick Drake or Sir Francis Drake?
- jimmywetnips 3y agoDrake the type of guy to end his pr request with a <3
- gmuslera 3y agoHistory is written by the victors. The greatest achiever of which work reached us, by the criteria that we pick, of the things we know today, and the "we" changes from culture to culture. Without dismissing Bach's work (or the others named in the discussion, I would had picked Leonardo with my shallow default knowledge on the topic) we should acknowledge how biased is what we know. Not just because how we select what we should focus on, but how partial is the information that managed to reach us today.
- Jensson 3y ago> History is written by the victors No it isn't, history is written by people looking at old documents. Losers write a lot of history as well since it isn't like the victors go and kill all the losers or burn down all their documents. > The greatest achiever of which work reached us, by the criteria that we pick, of the things we know today, and the "we" changes from culture to culture. Yes, the history taught to us depends on where we live, not who won back then. If you are in country A they will say their glorius wars conquered B, if you are in country B they will say the tyranny when ruled A was a horrible time. History wasn't written by A, both sides gets to write most of the time.
- hotdogscout 3y agoThere's also self criticism. People are quick to dogpile on entities that do self criticism while proud egoists who never analyze themselves rarely get that.
- genman 3y ago>> History is written by the victors > No it isn't, history is written by people looking at old documents. Perhaps in very recent history but the old documents have been written by contemporary and there are many clear cases when the history has been rewritten by a tyrants e.g. politicians. I even know at least one large country based on multiple historical lies they tell to themselves and try to force upon others. Defacing old sculptures and paintings to erase people from the history is another clearest example of this practice.
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- dudul 3y agoVictor Hugo could be on the short list.
- mkl95 3y agoIt depends on your definition of greatness. Alexander the Great and Napoleon come to mind.
- hobs 3y agoIt really does depend on your definition - "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes." might be apocryphal but metrics of success are so weird to apply to an individual externally, everyone is going to have their own slightly different definition.
- noch 3y ago> It depends on your definition of greatness. Alexander the Great and Napoleon come to mind. Obviously, "it depends". In fact, in the article, a comprehensive list of criteria is given.
- wslh 3y agoYes, Alexander the Great died at 32 years old while Bach died at 65. Apples and organges but two great achievers.
- danielvaughn 3y agoThe comment thread on that page gets into Newton and Neumann, but I think artistic/scientific achievements are apples/oranges. Doesn't make sense to compare the two, because the standard of quality is so different. Even within artistic disciplines, how would you compare Bach, Shakespeare, and DaVinci? Shakespeare alone added 1,700 new words to the English language (that we still use today). DaVinci painted so meticulously that his works have hundreds of layers of paint that are thinner than a strand of hair. Comparison is the thief of joy - better to just envision a "hall of fame", where once reached, it doesn't matter where you place.
- Jensson 3y ago> Comparison is the thief of joy Comparing others is a source of joy, people love gossiping or just talking about who is better etc. Comparison is only a thief of joy when you compare yourself to others, but comparing Newton to Einstein etc is an endless source of fun, many people have enjoyed these discussions over the years.
- atoav 3y agoYeah, but those are people who are nowhere near that level of excellence at all. Gossip for those people is often just a mechanism to increase their self esteem in front of bigger than life artists who truly changed the world. It is a bit like music lovers who have strong opinions about everything, while not being able to play a single note on any instrument. For them comparing the great musicians on that level makes them feel important too – if they can't walk the walk they at least try to talk the talk. Meanwhile most actual musicians are usually far more tolerant about the types of music they would consider interesting, because for them everything new they hear is something that can be used as an influence for creation. So if someone asks whether Bach or thee greates Jazz musicians on the height of their game were the greater artists, any musician with half a brain cell would reject the question, because the question doesn't even make sense. Both things are absolutely masterful within the ideas they tried to explore. And those were different ideas. That would be like comparing a masterfully built modern bridge to gothic cathedral. They are from different times, have been created in different societies, with different goals in mind with a different knowledge base, etc. Any comparison that would be worth anything would have to account for all these different factors and then land at a result that would be highly subjective anyways (which is not a bad thing if you are interested in using that comparison to increase your own self worth in front of the architects who planned those – but futile otherwise).
- eviks 3y agoClearly not since neither the list of metrics nor theire relative importance nor even the assessment within a metric is anywhere close to being solid enough to allow measuring the known information (and then there is also a lot we don't know about the past). Also, > 8. Ending up so great that he could learn only from himself. how does greatness prevent you from learning from others? For example, don't greatest athletes continue to benefit from coaches?
- j7ake 3y agoBach is definitely the greatest achiever in music of all time. His fame also took a long time to establish. He was well known during his life but nothing like the mythical legend he is now today.
- cesaref 3y agoI thought Bach was relatively obscure till Mendelssohn promoted his music to a new generation? Anyhow, there are many many great composers from different genres, and if you consider the aim to be communication (rather than the quality of the music itself) who would argue against the Beatles, or Taylor Swift as the greatest achievers of all time in music?
- Sharlin 3y agoWell, between Bach and Mendelssohn, baroque music had been out of fashion for a century. Mendelssohn revived interest in Bach's music. Doesn't mean Bach wasn't renowned in his own time.
- cesaref 3y agoYes, that's a good point. It's hard to remember how long ago he was writing, until you think about stuff like the well tempered clavier, where being able to play in all keys on the same instrument is seen as a modern marvel. We are now so used to equal temperament that the compromised intervals sound normal to us, whilst they would have sounded wrong to them.
- Sharlin 3y agoThe major sub-periods of the Common Practice Period are roughly * Baroque c. 1600–1750 – Pachelbel, Purcell, Albinoni, Telemann, Bach, Händel, Vivaldi * Classical c. 1730–1820 – Haydn, Mozart, Salieri, Beethoven, Schubert, as well as Bach's sons C.P.E. Bach and J.C. Bach * Romantic c. 1800–1910 – Strauss, Wagner, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Dvořák, Tchaikowsky, Grieg, Sibelius with quite a bit of overlap, of course – for example Beethoven and Schubert were both influential figures in the Classical–Romantic transition.
- meindnoch 3y agoOnly after Gödel and Escher.
- psvv 3y agoThis feeling may have more to do with the nature of biographies than anything.
- thih9 3y ago> How much better he was than his contemporaries. Define better; Bach wasn’t appreciated that much when he was alive. Only later we decided that his works are the bees knees. “Throughout the 18th century, Bach was primarily valued as an organist, while his keyboard music, such as The Well-Tempered Clavier, was appreciated for its didactic qualities.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach
- mistercheph 3y agoThat is total BS. How would we even know that if it were true? Do you remember being instructed not to cite wikipedia as a source?
- spicymaki 3y agoHere is another story: https://saskatoonsymphony.org/the-nearly-lost-brandenburg-concertos/ https://saskatoonsymphony.org/the-nearly-lost-brandenburg-co... The Brandenburg Concerti were ignored until around 1849 and nearly lost again during WWII. How ridiculous is that?
- quonn 3y agoThis kind of „analysis“ also gets written i. sources that are not wikipedia. And that‘s better?
- thih9 3y agoDo you have a source? I.e. one that shows the Wikipedia quote is incorrect?
- Allybag 3y agoYou could respond a little less aggressively. This guy isn’t writing a thesis, he’s posting an internet comment.
- mistercheph 3y agoYou are right. I regret the language that I used, which was unnecessarily hostile. Sorry for adding negativity :/
- whatever1 3y agoWhat about the Bernoulli family?
- kragen 3y agoa surprising thing i learned about bach is that on november 6, 01717, he was imprisoned due to a dispute with the authorities, so i try to celebrate november 6 as bach day https://derctuo.github.io/notes/hacker-calendar.html https://derctuo.github.io/notes/hacker-calendar.html possibly being among the greatest achievers of all time is not compatible with being perfectly obedient i'm not sure how tyler cowen doesn't consider this a 'true defeat or setback', except in the sense that today only bach scholars remember the name of the guy who imprisoned him
- orenlindsey 3y ago> Never experiencing true defeat or setback Why is that a criteria? Most setbacks aren't really something the person can control (Although, in Napoleon's case, he probably could have). Also, failure is going to happen in life. You just need to accept it.
- yousif_123123 3y agoHe definitely achieved a lot, but its not useful to undermine others or say he achieved more (and therefore they are beneath him) since it's not really that kind of competition. These people pushed forward human civilization. They are all an inspiration to us.
- motohagiography 3y agoBach's work would have been lost to obscurity were it not for Mendelssohns rediscovery and promotion of his work about 50y after J.S. Bach's death, and causing a revival that kept the work alive. I'm trying to find good sources for the story as it's part of an example how someone trying to assimilate into european society (Mendelssohn was a jewish convert to christianity, likely to find work) was responsible for defnining one of its pillars just by appreciating it. J.S. Bach's son, J.C. apparently tutored a very young Mozart in London as well, so we can see how the seed of J.S. Bach's work propagated. The piece I'm missing is that J.S. Bach's work contains several homages to Vivaldi, and there was something transmitted between them that is an understanding not just of counterpoint, but about symmetry and form that is fun to pursue in spare moments.
- zozbot234 3y agoThe obscure Baroque composer Christoph Graupner possibly has more compositions surviving to the present day than his contemporary Bach, though admittedly a lot of Bach's work is now lost. Another notable composer from the same period was Georg Philip Telemann.
- Aidevah 3y agoThis is partly true. Mendelssohn brought back the great religious works of Bach into the public consciousness (79 years after Bach's death, not 50 years). However, Bach was by no means unknown among the professional musicians, though his fame was of course eclipsed by his sons. If there was anyone who surveyed the breadth of music in the late 18th century, it was Burney, and he gave a very sympathetic treatment of Bach in his General History of Music. The young Beethoven was famous partly for being able to play the entire Well-Tempered Keyboard from memory, and his Op 120 variations were unmistakably composed with Bach's Goldberg variations in mind. Mozart, who was himself a great master of counterpoint, was understandably delighted by the Bach fugues that Baron Van Swieten showed him. Mozart was of course very heavily indebted to Johann Christian, but several pieces were clearly homages to the elder Bach; the subject from the K. 394 fugue was clearly derived from the first of the WTK, and the K. 574 Gigue (composed in Leipzig, no less) is obviously Bachian pastiche. The armoured men chorus from the Magic Flute sets a protestant chorale (often used by Bach) in a Bachian setting. That's not to mention the string quartet arrangements of Bach's fugues that Mozart made.
- flint 3y agoDolly Parton
- justanotherjoe 3y agoisn't jesus the obvious answer? or is religion cheating?
- Tao3300 3y agoNot cheating, but there isn't a good argument from the given criteria: 1. Quality of work. 2. How much better he was than his contemporaries. 3. How much he stayed the very best in subsequent centuries. 4. Quantity of work. 5. Peaks. 6. Consistency of work and achievement. 7. How many other problems he had to solve to succeed with his achievement. 8. Ending up so great that he could learn only from himself. 9. Never experiencing true defeat or setback. There's a reasonable case to be made that Yeshua bin Yusuf was one of the more successful apocalyptic prophets in that time and place considering how much of his teaching comes down to us. I'd say there's a good case for checking off 1 and 2, but that's about it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jll29 3y agoI think I can agree with this. He was as prolific as Euler was in mathematics, but perhaps a tad more of a genius (hard to compare music and maths). > He seems to have been entirely internally driven by his genius and his commitment to the eternal and divine. That's probably the only way to go strong for that long.
- tomcam 3y agoBach played organ, harpsichord, flute, oboe, viola, violin, and bass. He probably played brass instruments too. He was so good he could sightread Bach but he could also improvise counterpoint in more than four voices simultaneously.
- fortran77 3y agoThere was DiVinci, and in more modern times, Einstein.
- smortaz 3y agoBach is the best proof we have that advanced aliens visited earth and took human shape :). like in that episode of star trek, The Traveler. and based on the complexity of Fugues he was probably the world’s best multi-threaded programmer too :).
- bluenose69 3y agoSee "Time Pressure", a novel by Spider Robinson.