5 ms·

Neocities – Developers API

74 points by ulrischa 3y ago

ulrischa 3y ago
I do not know of other hosting providers that offer a REST API for Upload/Delete
- gkbrk 3y ago
  BunnyCDN, DigitalOcean and AWS all offer REST APIs to Upload/Delete pages.
  - ulrischa 3y ago
    But they are not simple Webhosting providers
    - gkbrk 3y ago
      How is BunnyCDN not simple? You register, you top-up some money, you drag and drop your files on the web UI and it's live. They give you a free subdomain with HTTPS (Let's Encrypt). If you want, you can bring your own domain too.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    I've found that REST Upload/Delete feels worse than FTP, or other similar protocols with like 45+ years of tool development. There was once a HTTP standard called WebDav IIRC but it seems rarely implemented. Why haven't these sites tried that direction if they wanted HTTP-Backed security measures? Upload/Delete as REST is usable though.
    - cxr 3y ago
      Neocities has WebDAV support, but it's limited to paid subscribers only (it's billed mainly as a way for you to "mount your Neocities [site]" as a virtual drive), and it's got a lot of the same annoyances that afflicts more or less every REST and quasi-REST service (where you have to tickle some URL over here in order to effect some resource over there).
      - johnhenry 3y ago
        I became a paid subscriber specifically to use their WebDAV features. I almost immediately unsubscribed as, at the time, I could not find a viable WebDAV client. I simply don't believe that this entire ecosystem supports it.
    - mxuribe 3y ago
      > ...There was once a HTTP standard called WebDav IIRC but it seems rarely implemented... WebDAV is still a valid thing, and used quite more often than most people know. Its not known because it lives deeply embedded within apps and systems, and not something that is often visible to users. Case in point, a little thing called Google Drive makes use of WebDAV, so does NextCloud, etc. WebDAV's not dead yet! (With apologies to Monty Python. ;-)
cxr 3y ago
Fairly sure these docs are out of date wrt to the behavior of file extensions. Kyle infamously flipped an nginx switch last year to strip .html file extensions to give sites "clean URLs" (so if you have, for example, "/cyberspace/archive-the-web.html", it will give a 301 redirect to "/cyberspace/archive-the-web"), which is described in the latest Neocities blog post and unfortunately breaks the invariants that are expected by scripts and tools aimed at working with static sites. (And, of course, as it generally goes without saying when someone labels something a "REST API", this is not REST, but that's a different topic.)
- froggertoaster 3y ago
  > this is not REST I feel like almost every API could have this footnote.
  - Kiro 3y ago
    What makes most APIs not REST?
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      When people are being pedantic, "REST" refers specifically to a set of architectural guidelines for application and API design, including things like statelessness and HATEOAS[1]. Most "REST" APIs don't adhere to these, and are just endpoints for shoving JSON around (sometimes with idiomatic HTTP verbs). But this is pedantry. REST has become a generic term for "shoving JSON around," for better or worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS
    - giancarlostoro 3y ago
      In the case of this one you have a POST to delete and a POST to upload. Instead of POST, PUT, and DELETE requests. Thats just from a quick glance.
    - stonogo 3y ago
      Most of them fail to meet one of the requirements in the "uniform interface" section; generally, in my experience, either "self-descriptive messages" or "HATEOAS".
ulrischa 3y ago
Seems like neocities is not very popular. Are there any other good free alternatives with similar features - except from git based solutions?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Why the git exclusion?
  - skrebbel 3y ago
    You weren’t responding to me, but my guess it’s because git is 10x harder to learn than basic HTML and CSS.
    - hhh 3y ago
      I wouldn't consider basic git usage 10x that for most people
      - skrebbel 3y ago
        You can learn enough HTML to make a website without even properly understanding what files and directories are, let alone how to use a terminal. And with Neocities, you also don’t need to understand what it means for files to be “local” or “on a server” because you just get a textarea that you can type your HTML into. (until you get to stuff like using your own images that is) To do “basic git usage” you need to pretty deeply grok all of that before you can even begin to learn git itself. Just to publish a website!
      - yallpendantools 3y ago
        Git and HTML both deal with the (let's face it) complicated data structure we all know as trees. The difference: You can fuck up an HTML tree and most browsers can still display your page[1], you can still get your message across. You fuck up a git history tree and you can somehow summon Cthulhu. Not to mention, even if you can manage to stay away from branch confusion, just dealing with diffs is already a huge barrier for newbies. [1] See "Where HTML 'beats' C" - Computerphile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csXdj4WVwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csXdj4WVwA
pard68 3y ago
I paid for Neocites but had to cancel and move elsewhere (Cloudflare atm) because it wasn't always updating files. I forget the exact issue but I went to report it on their Github and found a one or two year old issue opened already with no dev response, so I moved on.
- grimgrin 3y ago
  I tossed em $100 of btc a while back cuz it gave you supporter access for life. Worth it even if you are the self hosted type. Imo I’ve spun up so many one offs
  - makeworld 3y ago
    What makes it good even for self-hosters? I have a lot of respect for Neocities but haven't used it since I have a VPS.
    - grimgrin 3y ago
      Just worth it _for me_ I make a lot of lil one offs, and I want a static page, and neocities (from main account) simply has an input box for a new site name, so I "spin up" w/o registration neocities is cute, the spirit of it. I have no idea if they're still accepting $100 of btc, it was just appealing when I noticed once upon a time
shp0ngle 3y ago
I never understood the appeal of neocities. What's the upside vs just dumping it on github pages?
- popcar2 3y ago
  It's more of a platform than just a website dumping ground. You can tag your site and browse other people's websites, and most people on neocities have the same goal of making websites that are more old-school and less modern. https://neocities.org/browse https://neocities.org/browse
- mxuribe 3y ago
  I'm not a user of neocities, but I know plenty of people who do use it..and they all use it for reasons having to do with principles as well as fun, and less so about technology. The people i know who use neocities might consider github and other similar offerings as the continued centralization of all the things, where neocities would be considered "the alternative". Of course, if enough users also populate neocities and github, then we have less decentralization, and more of a duopoly...but still the folks i know who use it, just think of neocities as the scrappy offering alternative to the "big powers" - so not just against github but also other big web hosting powerrs who behave more centralized. In addition, and beyond the principles aspect, they often like neocities because its a bit nostalgic back when the web was weird, quirky, and more fun - and not so bland and corporate-like as it often seems to be these days. Final note, the people - that i know - that are neocities users are actually quite tech-savvy enough to use github, so its not that they lack the competency to use github, its just that they *choose* not to.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  Not having to learn Git to make a website, for one. Both my kids have a neocities website, github pages has an enormous barrier to entry compared to it. Just google around, read some w3schools, type it into a textarea at neocities and woa, your own site. Obviously this is only interesting for relatively nerdy types, but i don’t at all understand all the “why don’t people just <twenty cumbersome steps and tools>” comments that are here currently. I know no place that makes having your own, self-built website, easier. And it’s free!
101008 3y ago
Is there market for a Neocities or alternatives? I feel people who still believe in websites want to build them themselves and host them in a CDN. It is not (unfortauntely) the 90s or 2000s anymore, when people and teens wanted to have their own website. Now they want to have their own TikTok, Instagram and YouTube channel.
- vasco 3y ago
  > Neocities is a social network of 700,800 web sites
- echelon 3y ago
  > It is not (unfortauntely) the 90s or 2000s anymore, when people and teens wanted to have their own website. Now they want to have their own TikTok, Instagram and YouTube channel. And in another generation, it'll be something else.
- sodapopcan 3y ago
  Not all. There is another commenter here who says both their kids have neocities sites. And shit goes in circles, maybe more younger people will want their own websites again, who knows.

74 points by ulrischa 3y ago

ulrischa 3y ago

I do not know of other hosting providers that offer a REST API for Upload/Delete

gkbrk 3y ago
BunnyCDN, DigitalOcean and AWS all offer REST APIs to Upload/Delete pages.
- ulrischa 3y ago
  But they are not simple Webhosting providers
  - gkbrk 3y ago
    How is BunnyCDN not simple? You register, you top-up some money, you drag and drop your files on the web UI and it's live. They give you a free subdomain with HTTPS (Let's Encrypt). If you want, you can bring your own domain too.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  I've found that REST Upload/Delete feels worse than FTP, or other similar protocols with like 45+ years of tool development. There was once a HTTP standard called WebDav IIRC but it seems rarely implemented. Why haven't these sites tried that direction if they wanted HTTP-Backed security measures? Upload/Delete as REST is usable though.
  - cxr 3y ago
    Neocities has WebDAV support, but it's limited to paid subscribers only (it's billed mainly as a way for you to "mount your Neocities [site]" as a virtual drive), and it's got a lot of the same annoyances that afflicts more or less every REST and quasi-REST service (where you have to tickle some URL over here in order to effect some resource over there).
    - johnhenry 3y ago
      I became a paid subscriber specifically to use their WebDAV features. I almost immediately unsubscribed as, at the time, I could not find a viable WebDAV client. I simply don't believe that this entire ecosystem supports it.
  - mxuribe 3y ago
    > ...There was once a HTTP standard called WebDav IIRC but it seems rarely implemented... WebDAV is still a valid thing, and used quite more often than most people know. Its not known because it lives deeply embedded within apps and systems, and not something that is often visible to users. Case in point, a little thing called Google Drive makes use of WebDAV, so does NextCloud, etc. WebDAV's not dead yet! (With apologies to Monty Python. ;-)

cxr 3y ago

Fairly sure these docs are out of date wrt to the behavior of file extensions. Kyle infamously flipped an nginx switch last year to strip .html file extensions to give sites "clean URLs" (so if you have, for example, "/cyberspace/archive-the-web.html", it will give a 301 redirect to "/cyberspace/archive-the-web"), which is described in the latest Neocities blog post and unfortunately breaks the invariants that are expected by scripts and tools aimed at working with static sites. (And, of course, as it generally goes without saying when someone labels something a "REST API", this is not REST, but that's a different topic.)

froggertoaster 3y ago
> this is not REST I feel like almost every API could have this footnote.
- Kiro 3y ago
  What makes most APIs not REST?
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    When people are being pedantic, "REST" refers specifically to a set of architectural guidelines for application and API design, including things like statelessness and HATEOAS[1]. Most "REST" APIs don't adhere to these, and are just endpoints for shoving JSON around (sometimes with idiomatic HTTP verbs). But this is pedantry. REST has become a generic term for "shoving JSON around," for better or worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS
  - giancarlostoro 3y ago
    In the case of this one you have a POST to delete and a POST to upload. Instead of POST, PUT, and DELETE requests. Thats just from a quick glance.
  - stonogo 3y ago
    Most of them fail to meet one of the requirements in the "uniform interface" section; generally, in my experience, either "self-descriptive messages" or "HATEOAS".

ulrischa 3y ago

Seems like neocities is not very popular. Are there any other good free alternatives with similar features - except from git based solutions?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
paulddraper 3y ago
Why the git exclusion?
- skrebbel 3y ago
  You weren’t responding to me, but my guess it’s because git is 10x harder to learn than basic HTML and CSS.
  - hhh 3y ago
    I wouldn't consider basic git usage 10x that for most people
    - skrebbel 3y ago
      You can learn enough HTML to make a website without even properly understanding what files and directories are, let alone how to use a terminal. And with Neocities, you also don’t need to understand what it means for files to be “local” or “on a server” because you just get a textarea that you can type your HTML into. (until you get to stuff like using your own images that is) To do “basic git usage” you need to pretty deeply grok all of that before you can even begin to learn git itself. Just to publish a website!
    - yallpendantools 3y ago
      Git and HTML both deal with the (let's face it) complicated data structure we all know as trees. The difference: You can fuck up an HTML tree and most browsers can still display your page[1], you can still get your message across. You fuck up a git history tree and you can somehow summon Cthulhu. Not to mention, even if you can manage to stay away from branch confusion, just dealing with diffs is already a huge barrier for newbies. [1] See "Where HTML 'beats' C" - Computerphile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csXdj4WVwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csXdj4WVwA

pard68 3y ago

I paid for Neocites but had to cancel and move elsewhere (Cloudflare atm) because it wasn't always updating files. I forget the exact issue but I went to report it on their Github and found a one or two year old issue opened already with no dev response, so I moved on.

grimgrin 3y ago
I tossed em $100 of btc a while back cuz it gave you supporter access for life. Worth it even if you are the self hosted type. Imo I’ve spun up so many one offs
- makeworld 3y ago
  What makes it good even for self-hosters? I have a lot of respect for Neocities but haven't used it since I have a VPS.
  - grimgrin 3y ago
    Just worth it _for me_ I make a lot of lil one offs, and I want a static page, and neocities (from main account) simply has an input box for a new site name, so I "spin up" w/o registration neocities is cute, the spirit of it. I have no idea if they're still accepting $100 of btc, it was just appealing when I noticed once upon a time

shp0ngle 3y ago

I never understood the appeal of neocities. What's the upside vs just dumping it on github pages?

popcar2 3y ago
It's more of a platform than just a website dumping ground. You can tag your site and browse other people's websites, and most people on neocities have the same goal of making websites that are more old-school and less modern. https://neocities.org/browse https://neocities.org/browse
mxuribe 3y ago
I'm not a user of neocities, but I know plenty of people who do use it..and they all use it for reasons having to do with principles as well as fun, and less so about technology. The people i know who use neocities might consider github and other similar offerings as the continued centralization of all the things, where neocities would be considered "the alternative". Of course, if enough users also populate neocities and github, then we have less decentralization, and more of a duopoly...but still the folks i know who use it, just think of neocities as the scrappy offering alternative to the "big powers" - so not just against github but also other big web hosting powerrs who behave more centralized. In addition, and beyond the principles aspect, they often like neocities because its a bit nostalgic back when the web was weird, quirky, and more fun - and not so bland and corporate-like as it often seems to be these days. Final note, the people - that i know - that are neocities users are actually quite tech-savvy enough to use github, so its not that they lack the competency to use github, its just that they *choose* not to.
skrebbel 3y ago
Not having to learn Git to make a website, for one. Both my kids have a neocities website, github pages has an enormous barrier to entry compared to it. Just google around, read some w3schools, type it into a textarea at neocities and woa, your own site. Obviously this is only interesting for relatively nerdy types, but i don’t at all understand all the “why don’t people just <twenty cumbersome steps and tools>” comments that are here currently. I know no place that makes having your own, self-built website, easier. And it’s free!

101008 3y ago

Is there market for a Neocities or alternatives? I feel people who still believe in websites want to build them themselves and host them in a CDN. It is not (unfortauntely) the 90s or 2000s anymore, when people and teens wanted to have their own website. Now they want to have their own TikTok, Instagram and YouTube channel.

vasco 3y ago
> Neocities is a social network of 700,800 web sites
echelon 3y ago
> It is not (unfortauntely) the 90s or 2000s anymore, when people and teens wanted to have their own website. Now they want to have their own TikTok, Instagram and YouTube channel. And in another generation, it'll be something else.
sodapopcan 3y ago
Not all. There is another commenter here who says both their kids have neocities sites. And shit goes in circles, maybe more younger people will want their own websites again, who knows.