6 ms·

Unfortunately, wishing for the ceasing-of-existence of an apartheid state is considered justified by most of the world.

tety 3y ago
what makes it an apartheid state? palestinians have no voting rights in all the neighboring arab states, yet a large amount of them do in israel. and if they don’t in Israel they have voting rights for the palestinian authority
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  I don't know if this is intentionally obtuse but its TRIVIALLY easy to find examples and journalistic documentaries demonstrating the apartheid going back years just of the top of my head, there are already seperate roads that palestinians are not allowed to go on. palestinians have to go through multiple checkpoints just to travel within their own territory. palestinians are tried in a separate military court with a 90% conviction rate. here's some links https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM how Israel created a water crisis https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snatching-palestinians-phones-and-punishing-them-for-having-photos-of-gaza/?fbclid=IwAR2duDzrJb4FfsNMcV2XMpaTPzQnE0sXXNGY_lGCMpbv7bbqu7EHNJTuJyc https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snat... Israeli soldiers are arresting and beating up palestinians simply for having photos of gaza. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN here we see settler violence going on in the west bank where hamas does not opearte. its a direct contradiction to the israeli claim that there would be peac in the middle east of the arabs put their guns down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJaz... an israeli company has already put together a promo for luxury homes for israeli's to be built on the ruins of gaza. where will these people who lived there go? oh right, they are being systematically exterminated right now. like, this took just 5 min of googling. The evidence is out there in PLAIN sight so the only way I can understand someone not knowing at this point is if they are intentionally looking the other way. its not too disimilar to germans living near the concentration camps. people looked the other way because it wasn't convenient to know what was really happening.
  - tety 3y ago
    This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. This is because different reasons such as preference not to press charges if there is not a very high chance of conviction, plea bargains, etc. 2. Multiple checkpoints - The security situation in the west bank is a reflection of the fact this is an occupied territory which should have been solved in subsequent peace negotiations. This never happened, and the reasons for that rest on both sides, but you have to be honest with yourself if you think the Palestinians did not reject multiple fair peace offers. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. there are enough historical examples of how systematic exterminations looks like to make this a not serious claim. Just compare the amount of casualties of different middle eastern conflicts to the Israeli-Palestinian one Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government.
    - cultofmetatron 3y ago
      > This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.
lelanthran 3y ago
> Unfortunately, wishing for the ceasing-of-existence of an apartheid state is considered justified by most of the world. Any reason other than hyperbole that you consider Israel to be an apartheid state, as compared to the rest of the Arab countries?
- throw310822 3y ago
  It's absolutely pointless for us to discuss once again why Israel is considered to be practicing apartheid. It has been established by the major human rights organisations: among which Amnesty International, Human Right Watch, and in Israel, B'Tselem. That's all we need to know, if you don't agree contest those and their findings- which you can consult online.
  - krembo 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - smsm42 3y ago
    It's indeed pointless, because it is a lie, always was a lie and continues being a lie. Naming the names of some of the far-left groups doesn't make it less of a lie. Arabs in Israel are integrated, have representation in the Knesset and full legal, electoral and all other rights. Talking about "apartheid" is nonsense, which is obvious to anybody who knows what this word means and what legal policies actually exist in Israel.
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      If this[1] is not apartheid, then nothing is. Separate parks with locked doors for children of different religion, the key given to Jewish moms. 1: Raw video by The Guardian, not even much commentary, see with your own eyes: https://youtu.be/ksnLom8OD9E?si=aYvcLqcLQK960fbx https://youtu.be/ksnLom8OD9E?si=aYvcLqcLQK960fbx
      - smsm42 3y ago
        This is not apartheid, and something is, but not this. I don't know what exactly happened with those people - though by the fact that they call Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem "settlers" I can know I can't trust a word that they are saying, and the source - which is the horrendously biased against Israel Guardian - even if everything that they say were true (which I very much suspect isn't), it looks like a property dispute, very likely based on the habit of certain parts of the population (not only Arabic, but often also) to build things first and apply for permits never. This is not always prosecuted, but sometimes it is. Sometimes it leads to very nasty disputes. Never has anything to do with "apartheid", which is lack of rights based on race (or, I allow it, ethnicity). Again, Arabs in Israel enjoy exactly the same rights, so the claim of "apartheid" is pure libel. That doesn't change an iota even if you find some instance of somebody being unjustly treated by somebody else or the legal system (again, I have zero reason to believe The Guardian in this particular case, but even if it did, it would have nothing to do with supposed "apartheid"). Also I note if you watch the film carefully, the Arabs do not just demand the property. They demand the Jews to leave Jerusalem (1:26). Israel is just fine with Arabs living in Jerusalem (even if some may claim they are not fairly treated). Arabs are not fine with Jews living in Jerusalem. And we just witnessed on October 7th what they do to Jews they're not fine with, when they can. In Jerusalem, they can't. But they still would like to. I don't think when they are deprived of this capacity, it's called "apartheid" - it's not what that word was supposed to mean.

tety 3y ago

what makes it an apartheid state? palestinians have no voting rights in all the neighboring arab states, yet a large amount of them do in israel. and if they don’t in Israel they have voting rights for the palestinian authority

cultofmetatron 3y ago
I don't know if this is intentionally obtuse but its TRIVIALLY easy to find examples and journalistic documentaries demonstrating the apartheid going back years just of the top of my head, there are already seperate roads that palestinians are not allowed to go on. palestinians have to go through multiple checkpoints just to travel within their own territory. palestinians are tried in a separate military court with a 90% conviction rate. here's some links https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCh043-gLIM how Israel created a water crisis https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snatching-palestinians-phones-and-punishing-them-for-having-photos-of-gaza/?fbclid=IwAR2duDzrJb4FfsNMcV2XMpaTPzQnE0sXXNGY_lGCMpbv7bbqu7EHNJTuJyc https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/20/israeli-soldiers-are-snat... Israeli soldiers are arresting and beating up palestinians simply for having photos of gaza. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC6bMfikaiQ&ab_channel=CNN here we see settler violence going on in the west bank where hamas does not opearte. its a direct contradiction to the israeli claim that there would be peac in the middle east of the arabs put their guns down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkN6PH5cG7c&ab_channel=AlJaz... an israeli company has already put together a promo for luxury homes for israeli's to be built on the ruins of gaza. where will these people who lived there go? oh right, they are being systematically exterminated right now. like, this took just 5 min of googling. The evidence is out there in PLAIN sight so the only way I can understand someone not knowing at this point is if they are intentionally looking the other way. its not too disimilar to germans living near the concentration camps. people looked the other way because it wasn't convenient to know what was really happening.
- tety 3y ago
  This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. Examples: 1. Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. This is because different reasons such as preference not to press charges if there is not a very high chance of conviction, plea bargains, etc. 2. Multiple checkpoints - The security situation in the west bank is a reflection of the fact this is an occupied territory which should have been solved in subsequent peace negotiations. This never happened, and the reasons for that rest on both sides, but you have to be honest with yourself if you think the Palestinians did not reject multiple fair peace offers. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. there are enough historical examples of how systematic exterminations looks like to make this a not serious claim. Just compare the amount of casualties of different middle eastern conflicts to the Israeli-Palestinian one Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government.
  - cultofmetatron 3y ago
    > This is a lot of anecdotal evidence. you see enough annectodatal evidence and it starts to become a pattern > And you are touching a lot of different subjects which I don't have time to refute one by one. thats how systematic oppression work. it has many facets and if you're pro israeli, you've only maintained that position by bot reading though the evidence > Convinction rate in Israel is over 90% for the entire population, not just palestinians. fair, but why do palestinians go thougha. seperate miliary court? why are children as young as 10 serving time in military prisons? october 7th was horrible but lets not ignore that it was motivated by people in a desperate situation trying to gain bargaining chips to have their loved ones released. some of those children released from the prisons in exchange for the israeli hostages were as young as 10 at the time of incarceration. "Systematically exterminated" - This is an extreme hyperbole.. no its not. this proves to me you have spent no time watching any of the documentaries exploring this. you wouldn't last a day living in the west bank as a palestinian. Ive seen plenty of videos of settlers shooting down palestinians in cold blood with IDF soldiers doing nothing to stop it. they only step in when palestinians fight back. as an american who studied history, I know enough about the ku klux klan to to know ethnic cleansing when I see it. > Please try to touch something more concrete than multiple anecdotes which most do not really represent anything similar to an apartheid government. I think its obvious that there is no amount of evidence that would meet the bar for you to consider whats going on an apartheid.

lelanthran 3y ago

> Unfortunately, wishing for the ceasing-of-existence of an apartheid state is considered justified by most of the world. Any reason other than hyperbole that you consider Israel to be an apartheid state, as compared to the rest of the Arab countries?

throw310822 3y ago
It's absolutely pointless for us to discuss once again why Israel is considered to be practicing apartheid. It has been established by the major human rights organisations: among which Amnesty International, Human Right Watch, and in Israel, B'Tselem. That's all we need to know, if you don't agree contest those and their findings- which you can consult online.
- krembo 3y ago
  [flagged]
- smsm42 3y ago
  It's indeed pointless, because it is a lie, always was a lie and continues being a lie. Naming the names of some of the far-left groups doesn't make it less of a lie. Arabs in Israel are integrated, have representation in the Knesset and full legal, electoral and all other rights. Talking about "apartheid" is nonsense, which is obvious to anybody who knows what this word means and what legal policies actually exist in Israel.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    If this[1] is not apartheid, then nothing is. Separate parks with locked doors for children of different religion, the key given to Jewish moms. 1: Raw video by The Guardian, not even much commentary, see with your own eyes: https://youtu.be/ksnLom8OD9E?si=aYvcLqcLQK960fbx https://youtu.be/ksnLom8OD9E?si=aYvcLqcLQK960fbx
    - smsm42 3y ago
      This is not apartheid, and something is, but not this. I don't know what exactly happened with those people - though by the fact that they call Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem "settlers" I can know I can't trust a word that they are saying, and the source - which is the horrendously biased against Israel Guardian - even if everything that they say were true (which I very much suspect isn't), it looks like a property dispute, very likely based on the habit of certain parts of the population (not only Arabic, but often also) to build things first and apply for permits never. This is not always prosecuted, but sometimes it is. Sometimes it leads to very nasty disputes. Never has anything to do with "apartheid", which is lack of rights based on race (or, I allow it, ethnicity). Again, Arabs in Israel enjoy exactly the same rights, so the claim of "apartheid" is pure libel. That doesn't change an iota even if you find some instance of somebody being unjustly treated by somebody else or the legal system (again, I have zero reason to believe The Guardian in this particular case, but even if it did, it would have nothing to do with supposed "apartheid"). Also I note if you watch the film carefully, the Arabs do not just demand the property. They demand the Jews to leave Jerusalem (1:26). Israel is just fine with Arabs living in Jerusalem (even if some may claim they are not fairly treated). Arabs are not fine with Jews living in Jerusalem. And we just witnessed on October 7th what they do to Jews they're not fine with, when they can. In Jerusalem, they can't. But they still would like to. I don't think when they are deprived of this capacity, it's called "apartheid" - it's not what that word was supposed to mean.