5 ms·

“Their knowledge letting them complete the test earlier is bad” is an interesting take.

by 2024throwaway 3y ago

kevingadd 3y ago
Being able to take shortcuts using your knowledge might lead to not acquiring all the fundamentals you'd usually pick up along the way.
kayodelycaon 3y ago
The problem is theory can be detrimental to real world practice. You may not know how to properly integrate the knowledge you have with what are you trying to learn.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  Then the test is wrong? Regardless of what your strong points are, when you succeed at the test you are a pilot.
  - ponector 3y ago
    Not really. Test could be close, bit never replace practical exam. Not related to aviation, bit to everything: to learn something to use and to learn something to pass exams - are two different paths.
  - tome 3y ago
    "All tests are wrong, some are useful" (with apologies to George Box)
  - potsandpans 3y ago
    What are you actually arguing here?
dbt00 3y ago
If you don't understand why that's bad, look up the 2009 crash of Air France 447, when a pilot made an error that should have been impossible to make with any kind of flight training and killed 228 people.
- pseudosavant 3y ago
  Certainly, by the time you are piloting for Air France, you'll have had so much training and experience that whether you used a flight simulator before getting your first pilot's license is irrelevant.
  - throwup238 3y ago
    Not to mention that the flight simulators for large passenger aircraft are far more advanced than anything you can buy as a consumer, let alone download to a PC. Their physics simulations are advanced enough to use in crash investigations to simulate possible failure scenarios. Their use in training airline pilots is mandatory, not detrimental. This is what a full motion flight simulator for the aforementioned A330 looks like: https://www.afgsim.com/wp-content/uploads/A330_CEO_Madrid_-570x395_c.jpg https://www.afgsim.com/wp-content/uploads/A330_CEO_Madrid_-5... It costs at least $1.5 million. It's ~150x cheaper than the plane and since zero lives at risk, US airline pilots are required to train emergencies in simulators while being accessed by an examiner every six months (IIRC).
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      I’m fairly certain most of the cost there is in the machinery. The software should be more or less comparable (there’s no reason for it not to be anyway).
      - throwup238 3y ago
        > I’m fairly certain most of the cost there is in the machinery. Why are you so certain? While the hardware isn't exactly cheap, neither is the software. Gathering feedback from a bunch of pilots and incorporating it into the simulator isn't cheap. Renting out an A330 and a couple of pilots to run experimental validation isn't cheap - it costs >$50k an hour and you'll need hundreds if not thousands of hours. Validating each software release isn't cheap. *> The software should be more or less comparable (there’s no reason for it not to be anyway). I'm working on second hand info but AFAIK it takes over a dozen modern networked server systems to provide the fidelity the simulators need (with multiple GPUs no less). The software isn't comparable simply because a consumer machine isn't powerful enough to run the real stuff and the quality of the simulators has absolutely sky rocketed in the last 20 years. The've been constantly upgraded to the point that a 747 simulator now costs more than the plane itself.
ezconnect 3y ago
There's no substitute to real flight hours experience.
- almostnormal 3y ago
  Except that not every hour is the same. Flying straight and level following a GPS track with no relevant weather or traffic anywhere near accumulates a different kind of experience than other kinds of situations (bad weather, complex airspace, other traffic, ...). Number of landings is probably more relevant for survival.
- MaxBarraclough 3y ago
  That's not really true, or is at least unclear. The FAA allows time logged in approved simulators to be counted toward an instrument rating, for instance, up to a limit. The US Army make use of simulators when training their helicopter pilots, as it enables their trainees to meet test standards with fewer hours spent in real aircraft. [0] [0] https://rotarywingshow.com/104-vrsimulator-chris-ryan/ https://rotarywingshow.com/104-vrsimulator-chris-ryan/

“Their knowledge letting them complete the test earlier is bad” is an interesting take.

Being able to take shortcuts using your knowledge might lead to not acquiring all the fundamentals you'd usually pick up along the way.

kayodelycaon 3y ago

The problem is theory can be detrimental to real world practice. You may not know how to properly integrate the knowledge you have with what are you trying to learn.

Aeolun 3y ago
Then the test is wrong? Regardless of what your strong points are, when you succeed at the test you are a pilot.
- ponector 3y ago
  Not really. Test could be close, bit never replace practical exam. Not related to aviation, bit to everything: to learn something to use and to learn something to pass exams - are two different paths.
- tome 3y ago
  "All tests are wrong, some are useful" (with apologies to George Box)
- potsandpans 3y ago
  What are you actually arguing here?

dbt00 3y ago

If you don't understand why that's bad, look up the 2009 crash of Air France 447, when a pilot made an error that should have been impossible to make with any kind of flight training and killed 228 people.

pseudosavant 3y ago
Certainly, by the time you are piloting for Air France, you'll have had so much training and experience that whether you used a flight simulator before getting your first pilot's license is irrelevant.
- throwup238 3y ago
  Not to mention that the flight simulators for large passenger aircraft are far more advanced than anything you can buy as a consumer, let alone download to a PC. Their physics simulations are advanced enough to use in crash investigations to simulate possible failure scenarios. Their use in training airline pilots is mandatory, not detrimental. This is what a full motion flight simulator for the aforementioned A330 looks like: https://www.afgsim.com/wp-content/uploads/A330_CEO_Madrid_-570x395_c.jpg https://www.afgsim.com/wp-content/uploads/A330_CEO_Madrid_-5... It costs at least $1.5 million. It's ~150x cheaper than the plane and since zero lives at risk, US airline pilots are required to train emergencies in simulators while being accessed by an examiner every six months (IIRC).
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    I’m fairly certain most of the cost there is in the machinery. The software should be more or less comparable (there’s no reason for it not to be anyway).
    - throwup238 3y ago
      > I’m fairly certain most of the cost there is in the machinery. Why are you so certain? While the hardware isn't exactly cheap, neither is the software. Gathering feedback from a bunch of pilots and incorporating it into the simulator isn't cheap. Renting out an A330 and a couple of pilots to run experimental validation isn't cheap - it costs >$50k an hour and you'll need hundreds if not thousands of hours. Validating each software release isn't cheap. *> The software should be more or less comparable (there’s no reason for it not to be anyway). I'm working on second hand info but AFAIK it takes over a dozen modern networked server systems to provide the fidelity the simulators need (with multiple GPUs no less). The software isn't comparable simply because a consumer machine isn't powerful enough to run the real stuff and the quality of the simulators has absolutely sky rocketed in the last 20 years. The've been constantly upgraded to the point that a 747 simulator now costs more than the plane itself.

ezconnect 3y ago

There's no substitute to real flight hours experience.

almostnormal 3y ago
Except that not every hour is the same. Flying straight and level following a GPS track with no relevant weather or traffic anywhere near accumulates a different kind of experience than other kinds of situations (bad weather, complex airspace, other traffic, ...). Number of landings is probably more relevant for survival.
MaxBarraclough 3y ago
That's not really true, or is at least unclear. The FAA allows time logged in approved simulators to be counted toward an instrument rating, for instance, up to a limit. The US Army make use of simulators when training their helicopter pilots, as it enables their trainees to meet test standards with fewer hours spent in real aircraft. [0] [0] https://rotarywingshow.com/104-vrsimulator-chris-ryan/ https://rotarywingshow.com/104-vrsimulator-chris-ryan/