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"It’s well known that people with lower incomes commit more crime." No, this is only for certain types of crime. The amount of money stolen via income tax evas

"It’s well known that people with lower incomes commit more crime." No, this is only for certain types of crime. The amount of money stolen via income tax evasion, financial crimes... by the well off is massively, massively greater than the total amount stolen by the poor via shoplifting and other theft crimes.

jonnycomputer 3y ago
It is well known that the crimes committed by poor people are prosecuted more consistently and more frequently than the complicated white-collar crimes committed by wealthier people.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It’s not really well known. We’ve almost stopped prosecuting any petty crime at all in some jurisdictions (so it’s like shoplift till you drop). AG’s and county DA’s, on the other hand, make it a point to pursue white collar crime very aggressively, and whenever the Feds are involved (eg for insider trading), they are very aggressive. The issue with white collar crime, is that it is simply very hard to identify, while the guy walking out of Target with a basketful of stuff while avoiding checkout is just really obvious. It is also a matter of incentives. The only thing goin after most shoplifters will get the state is having to fund their court appearances and incarceration, a net loss. Going after a rich guy for a crime nets them real money, so when they can they definitely will do it (at least where I live, your locale will differ).
  - jonnycomputer 3y ago
    That people commit shop-lifting and other minor crimes with impunity is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality. It's being pushed by grifters with a financial interest in promoting the idea of societal decay and disorder and getting people worked up and afraid.
    - gruez 3y ago
      >That people commit shop-lifting and other minor crimes with impunity is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality How do you square this against DAs that openly state they won't prosecute such crimes?
      - jonnycomputer 3y ago
        You have data showing decreasing prosecution rates for such crimes, or is this selective reporting of what a few DAs (of the many thousands in this country) said? Vibes vibes vibes.
        gruez 3y ago
        So if you're being held up at gunpoint, what's going to be your response? "Well ackshually the chances of being robbed is less than 0.1% per year, so the idea that I'm being victimized is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality"? The fact that DAs in Mississippi are oppressing shoplifters is cold comfort to a storeowner in NY, LA, Dallas, St. Louis[1], SF[2], or Portland[3]. And that's just the jurisdictions I could turn up in a 2 minute google search. [1] https://www.apainc.org/choosing-not-to-prosecute-low-level-crimes-may-reduce-future-crime-research-finds/ https://www.apainc.org/choosing-not-to-prosecute-low-level-c... [2] https://www.sfexaminer.com/archives/data-shows-chesa-boudin-prosecutes-fewer-shoplifters-than-predecessor/article_7dbc7d85-cde9-59d9-8f23-7b240ee6f26d.html https://www.sfexaminer.com/archives/data-shows-chesa-boudin-... [3] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/multnomah-da-shoplifting-theft-prosecution/283-fd54e0dc-0a01-462b-a0af-1432955aa6e7 https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/multnomah-d...
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Not a right winger watching FauxNews, just a moderate (somewhat left of center). But when you see shoplifting happening multiple times a week, where the store worker or security guard is saying “would you please pay for that?” It’s obvious something is out of control.
      - 3y ago
- pentaphobe 3y ago
  Spot on - and this doesn't only apply to white collar crime - the wealthy are overwhelmingly more likely to escape prosecution for any crime. Whether through having resources to get off (legitimately or illegitimately), or just cultural bias (Eg. The mere existence of terms like "white-collar crime")
jvanderbot 3y ago
I read it implicitly as "violent" and "petty" crime. I'm fairly certain there's a bias against "breaking the rules" vs "exploiting the rules" in this discussion.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
  Many financial crimes are just that, 'crimes', not exploiting the rules, not bending them, but flat out breaking them. There is also a big difference between 'petty' (e.g. shoplifting, loitering) and 'violent' (e.g. mugging, school shooting,...)
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    Did you really misunderstand what I meant? or, perhaps you really are trying to help me edit to make my point? Or perhaps you disagree with the sentiment and are finding details to disagree with? This comment type is confusing.
CPLX 3y ago
It’s almost certainly true that the most commonly committed crime is tax evasion, with drug use as another contender. Neither are particularly confined to the lower incomes.
- 2devnull 3y ago
  Is tax evasion distributed differently by income level? How do you control for it just being more complicated to file as income increases? My experience in the lower rungs is that middle class people pay taxes faithfully out of great fear of consequences for not doing so, while lower income and poor friends often cheat or don’t bother with taxes at all (or bank accounts for that matter). I’ve met and known tax cheats but none of them white color workers. I would love to see data. I would predict a u shape, with tax evasion lowest in the middle, and higher for both low income blue color workers (including waitresses), and higher for the upper classes and those who own homes, other major wealth.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >My experience in the lower rungs is that middle class people pay taxes faithfully out of great fear of consequences for not doing so It's also pretty hard not to pay taxes if you're getting most of your income through employment, since your employer is obligated to withhold your taxes on behalf of the state.
  - CPLX 3y ago
    This seems broadly accurate, in the sense that middle class wage earners cheat on taxes the least, and have the least ability to. Lower income workers don't cheat out of much taxes either, because they don't have much money and don't get taxed much, but it's widespread for the under the table or cash economy of course. Which yes, leaves consequential tax evasion as mostly the province of the more well off, where it is rampant.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I would think, at least for under the table cash transactions, that it would be more lower income, not higher. That includes the fly by night electrician who will install a new outlet for you as long as you don’t need it certified, cash only, the guy also lives out of his truck. Or is consequential excluding those cases?
gruez 3y ago
>The amount of money stolen via income tax evasion, financial crimes... by the well off is massively, massively greater than the total amount stolen by the poor via shoplifting and other theft crimes. But the article is talking about "more crime", not "more money stolen" or similar. I think most people would agree that there's "more crime" happening when 100 people each steal $5 worth of candy bar from a store, than if a single person failed to report ~$2000 worth of income, and is therefore evading $500 worth of taxes.
enviouslosers 3y ago
[flagged]

jonnycomputer 3y ago

It is well known that the crimes committed by poor people are prosecuted more consistently and more frequently than the complicated white-collar crimes committed by wealthier people.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
It’s not really well known. We’ve almost stopped prosecuting any petty crime at all in some jurisdictions (so it’s like shoplift till you drop). AG’s and county DA’s, on the other hand, make it a point to pursue white collar crime very aggressively, and whenever the Feds are involved (eg for insider trading), they are very aggressive. The issue with white collar crime, is that it is simply very hard to identify, while the guy walking out of Target with a basketful of stuff while avoiding checkout is just really obvious. It is also a matter of incentives. The only thing goin after most shoplifters will get the state is having to fund their court appearances and incarceration, a net loss. Going after a rich guy for a crime nets them real money, so when they can they definitely will do it (at least where I live, your locale will differ).
- jonnycomputer 3y ago
  That people commit shop-lifting and other minor crimes with impunity is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality. It's being pushed by grifters with a financial interest in promoting the idea of societal decay and disorder and getting people worked up and afraid.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >That people commit shop-lifting and other minor crimes with impunity is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality How do you square this against DAs that openly state they won't prosecute such crimes?
    - jonnycomputer 3y ago
      You have data showing decreasing prosecution rates for such crimes, or is this selective reporting of what a few DAs (of the many thousands in this country) said? Vibes vibes vibes.
      - gruez 3y ago
        So if you're being held up at gunpoint, what's going to be your response? "Well ackshually the chances of being robbed is less than 0.1% per year, so the idea that I'm being victimized is a right-wing meme that has very little basis in reality"? The fact that DAs in Mississippi are oppressing shoplifters is cold comfort to a storeowner in NY, LA, Dallas, St. Louis[1], SF[2], or Portland[3]. And that's just the jurisdictions I could turn up in a 2 minute google search. [1] https://www.apainc.org/choosing-not-to-prosecute-low-level-crimes-may-reduce-future-crime-research-finds/ https://www.apainc.org/choosing-not-to-prosecute-low-level-c... [2] https://www.sfexaminer.com/archives/data-shows-chesa-boudin-prosecutes-fewer-shoplifters-than-predecessor/article_7dbc7d85-cde9-59d9-8f23-7b240ee6f26d.html https://www.sfexaminer.com/archives/data-shows-chesa-boudin-... [3] https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/multnomah-da-shoplifting-theft-prosecution/283-fd54e0dc-0a01-462b-a0af-1432955aa6e7 https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/multnomah-d...
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Not a right winger watching FauxNews, just a moderate (somewhat left of center). But when you see shoplifting happening multiple times a week, where the store worker or security guard is saying “would you please pay for that?” It’s obvious something is out of control.
    - 3y ago
pentaphobe 3y ago
Spot on - and this doesn't only apply to white collar crime - the wealthy are overwhelmingly more likely to escape prosecution for any crime. Whether through having resources to get off (legitimately or illegitimately), or just cultural bias (Eg. The mere existence of terms like "white-collar crime")

jvanderbot 3y ago

I read it implicitly as "violent" and "petty" crime. I'm fairly certain there's a bias against "breaking the rules" vs "exploiting the rules" in this discussion.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
Many financial crimes are just that, 'crimes', not exploiting the rules, not bending them, but flat out breaking them. There is also a big difference between 'petty' (e.g. shoplifting, loitering) and 'violent' (e.g. mugging, school shooting,...)
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  Did you really misunderstand what I meant? or, perhaps you really are trying to help me edit to make my point? Or perhaps you disagree with the sentiment and are finding details to disagree with? This comment type is confusing.

CPLX 3y ago

It’s almost certainly true that the most commonly committed crime is tax evasion, with drug use as another contender. Neither are particularly confined to the lower incomes.

2devnull 3y ago
Is tax evasion distributed differently by income level? How do you control for it just being more complicated to file as income increases? My experience in the lower rungs is that middle class people pay taxes faithfully out of great fear of consequences for not doing so, while lower income and poor friends often cheat or don’t bother with taxes at all (or bank accounts for that matter). I’ve met and known tax cheats but none of them white color workers. I would love to see data. I would predict a u shape, with tax evasion lowest in the middle, and higher for both low income blue color workers (including waitresses), and higher for the upper classes and those who own homes, other major wealth.
- gruez 3y ago
  >My experience in the lower rungs is that middle class people pay taxes faithfully out of great fear of consequences for not doing so It's also pretty hard not to pay taxes if you're getting most of your income through employment, since your employer is obligated to withhold your taxes on behalf of the state.
- CPLX 3y ago
  This seems broadly accurate, in the sense that middle class wage earners cheat on taxes the least, and have the least ability to. Lower income workers don't cheat out of much taxes either, because they don't have much money and don't get taxed much, but it's widespread for the under the table or cash economy of course. Which yes, leaves consequential tax evasion as mostly the province of the more well off, where it is rampant.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I would think, at least for under the table cash transactions, that it would be more lower income, not higher. That includes the fly by night electrician who will install a new outlet for you as long as you don’t need it certified, cash only, the guy also lives out of his truck. Or is consequential excluding those cases?

gruez 3y ago

>The amount of money stolen via income tax evasion, financial crimes... by the well off is massively, massively greater than the total amount stolen by the poor via shoplifting and other theft crimes. But the article is talking about "more crime", not "more money stolen" or similar. I think most people would agree that there's "more crime" happening when 100 people each steal $5 worth of candy bar from a store, than if a single person failed to report ~$2000 worth of income, and is therefore evading $500 worth of taxes.

enviouslosers 3y ago

[flagged]