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The entire thesis hinges on this quote from Ashlee Vance, who corrected/retracted said quote years later: >>Musk told me that the idea originated out of his ha

by quanto 3y ago

The entire thesis hinges on this quote from Ashlee Vance, who corrected/retracted said quote years later: >>Musk told me that the idea originated out of his hatred for California’s proposed high-speed rail system. … He insisted the Hyperloop would cost about $6 billion to $10 billion, go faster than a plane, and let people drive their cars onto a pod and drive out into a new city. At the time, it seemed that Musk had dished out the Hyperloop proposal just to make the public and legislators rethink the high-speed train. He didn’t actually intend to build the thing. … With any luck, the high-speed rail would be canceled. Musk said as much to me during a series of e-mails and phone calls leading up to the announcement. I have no divine insight into Musk's or any tech billionaire's minds, but if this article's thesis is that the billionaires' are conspiring to put down viable public transit, I would like to see more evidence. I do not disagree, however, that Hyperloop was an infeasible project from the get-go.

ch4s3 3y ago
The problem with California High Speed Rail is that they literally have no plans for the section that goes through the mountains. There are huge elevation changes in a seismically active area and its not clear that they'll ever figure it out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tjpnz 3y ago
  The Japanese figured it out decades ago. Get them to build it.
  - davidw 3y ago
    Heck, the line from Florence to Rome in Italy goes through mountains and is pretty fast.
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    California sure hasn't. They're billions over budget, and years behind schedule and keep putting off the part of the project that is the most challenging which is a hallmark of failed endeavors.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Do you mean other than these plans? https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PB_03.1-AppxA_Mapbook_a11y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PB_03.1-AppxA_...
  - vlovich123 3y ago
    I believe plans in this case would be a description of how these problems would be handled not pictures showing where the tracks would go.
    - jeffbee 3y ago
      You're complaining that Appendix 3.1-A of Volume 2 of their 30000-page plan in insufficiently detailed? These drawings are detailed enough to build the railroad. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/01_P2K_PEPD_RECORD_SET_Rev02_Track_Alignment_Plans-a11y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/01_P2K_PEPD_RE...
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        No I'm saying parcel maps and data sheets are not an approachable high level description of how these challenges are getting resolved. It's possible it has been. I'm not disputing that. But I don't have the necessary technical background to read the data sheets and make that determination & go from low level technical info to high level description of how these problems are getting tackled. That being said, the biggest hurdle is with the HSR is not technical but the political disfunction within the US that cripples large projects: > “There were so many things that went wrong,” Mr. McNamara said. “SNCF was very angry. They told the state they were leaving for North Africa, which was less politically dysfunctional. They went to Morocco and helped them build a rail system.” Morocco’s bullet train started service in 2018. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-... The original route that was supposed to service SF <-> LA now has detours that have added substantially to the costs and slowed down the rail (no longer a straight line). Similarly, they started building it out in the easiest possible point (in the middle of the country in the flat lands) rather than in places where they could start operating it and providing value (Bay Area/LA). It was clearly hijacked as a way to steal funds earmarked for transit and now is such a large project that has begun, that funding will probably continue indefinitely to help save face.
- ascagnel_ 3y ago
  > There are huge elevation changes in a seismically active area and its not clear that they'll ever figure it out. That same issue applies to any high-speed project that's not air travel, regardless of if it moves along asphalt or rails and if it runs on or below the ground.
cameronh90 3y ago
It seems quite clear that Musk dislikes public transport. He's publicly stated that he thinks it sucks and is inconvenient. If you think public transport is a bad idea and you have the means to kill the project, it stands to reason you'd give it a shot. I don't disagree entirely. Public transport is kind of rubbish and, all else being equal (travel times, cost, availability, etc.), I'd prefer to be in my own car as it drives itself directly to my destination. However, it's a question of whether it's possible to build a city around cars without it turning into a horrible traffic-filled hellscape, and so far Musk doesn't seem to have found an alternative solution. Certainly, there's nothing better on the table that works with current technology.
- RetpolineDrama 3y ago
  >It seems quite clear that Musk dislikes public transport. He's publicly stated that he thinks it sucks and is inconvenient. A _lot_ of people share this sentiment, especially in America. I've said much of the same, and I don't own a car company or benefit from them.
- creaturemachine 3y ago
  SV's ideas have probably done more to worsen the hellscape of car-dependent cities. Think of how many single-occupancy cars are on the road right now simply delivering someone's lunch. Robo-taxies don't eliminate cars, only the driver. Now that your car drives itself you don't mind the extra 20 minute commute if you can use that time to churn through emails.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  > Public transport is kind of rubbish Tell me you're an American without telling me you're an American[0]. If travel times, cost, and availability were actually equal, you'd pick public transit every time, because you don't have to focus on the cognitively stressful task of operating a motor vehicle. The reason why you care about being driven directly to your destination is specifically because the availability is so poor and gaps in the network get papered over with shittons of walking. The car has an analogous 'last mile' problem - i.e. finding a place to legally park it at your destination. We fixed that by mandating free parking everywhere. This pushes buildings away from one another, which means walking is even less viable, which exacerbates the traffic issue with lots of short trips. It also disaggregates traffic flows, which makes availability more expensive to produce, et cetera. [0] Or Canadian.
mannykannot 3y ago
When a person retracts a statement about a wealthy individual, one may reasonably wonder whether it was done under legal pressure. In this case, however, it seems that Ashlee Vance feels it is his words that are being taken out of context to see an attempt to quash high-speed rail: https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-california-high-spee-1849402460 https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-cali... “The Boring Company is one of [Musk’s] ventures that I’ve never understood, really,” Vance replied. “I totally get your point. In general, though, there’s no part of me that believes Elon was trying to kill public transport so people would stay in cars. I just don’t believe that.... Elon didn’t even need to bemoan the high-speed rail project for it to undermine itself.”
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
sdenton4 3y ago
"Who Framed Roger Rabbit" is a whimsical retelling of the destruction of LA's public transit system on behalf of the car industry, who were considering to get highways built and lock people into car ownership. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Framed_Roger_Rabbit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Framed_Roger_Rabbit

by quanto 3y ago

ch4s3 3y ago

The problem with California High Speed Rail is that they literally have no plans for the section that goes through the mountains. There are huge elevation changes in a seismically active area and its not clear that they'll ever figure it out.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tjpnz 3y ago
The Japanese figured it out decades ago. Get them to build it.
- davidw 3y ago
  Heck, the line from Florence to Rome in Italy goes through mountains and is pretty fast.
- ch4s3 3y ago
  California sure hasn't. They're billions over budget, and years behind schedule and keep putting off the part of the project that is the most challenging which is a hallmark of failed endeavors.
jeffbee 3y ago
Do you mean other than these plans? https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PB_03.1-AppxA_Mapbook_a11y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PB_03.1-AppxA_...
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I believe plans in this case would be a description of how these problems would be handled not pictures showing where the tracks would go.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    You're complaining that Appendix 3.1-A of Volume 2 of their 30000-page plan in insufficiently detailed? These drawings are detailed enough to build the railroad. https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/01_P2K_PEPD_RECORD_SET_Rev02_Track_Alignment_Plans-a11y.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/01_P2K_PEPD_RE...
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      No I'm saying parcel maps and data sheets are not an approachable high level description of how these challenges are getting resolved. It's possible it has been. I'm not disputing that. But I don't have the necessary technical background to read the data sheets and make that determination & go from low level technical info to high level description of how these problems are getting tackled. That being said, the biggest hurdle is with the HSR is not technical but the political disfunction within the US that cripples large projects: > “There were so many things that went wrong,” Mr. McNamara said. “SNCF was very angry. They told the state they were leaving for North Africa, which was less politically dysfunctional. They went to Morocco and helped them build a rail system.” Morocco’s bullet train started service in 2018. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-... The original route that was supposed to service SF <-> LA now has detours that have added substantially to the costs and slowed down the rail (no longer a straight line). Similarly, they started building it out in the easiest possible point (in the middle of the country in the flat lands) rather than in places where they could start operating it and providing value (Bay Area/LA). It was clearly hijacked as a way to steal funds earmarked for transit and now is such a large project that has begun, that funding will probably continue indefinitely to help save face.
ascagnel_ 3y ago
> There are huge elevation changes in a seismically active area and its not clear that they'll ever figure it out. That same issue applies to any high-speed project that's not air travel, regardless of if it moves along asphalt or rails and if it runs on or below the ground.

cameronh90 3y ago

It seems quite clear that Musk dislikes public transport. He's publicly stated that he thinks it sucks and is inconvenient. If you think public transport is a bad idea and you have the means to kill the project, it stands to reason you'd give it a shot. I don't disagree entirely. Public transport is kind of rubbish and, all else being equal (travel times, cost, availability, etc.), I'd prefer to be in my own car as it drives itself directly to my destination. However, it's a question of whether it's possible to build a city around cars without it turning into a horrible traffic-filled hellscape, and so far Musk doesn't seem to have found an alternative solution. Certainly, there's nothing better on the table that works with current technology.

RetpolineDrama 3y ago
>It seems quite clear that Musk dislikes public transport. He's publicly stated that he thinks it sucks and is inconvenient. A _lot_ of people share this sentiment, especially in America. I've said much of the same, and I don't own a car company or benefit from them.
creaturemachine 3y ago
SV's ideas have probably done more to worsen the hellscape of car-dependent cities. Think of how many single-occupancy cars are on the road right now simply delivering someone's lunch. Robo-taxies don't eliminate cars, only the driver. Now that your car drives itself you don't mind the extra 20 minute commute if you can use that time to churn through emails.
kmeisthax 3y ago
> Public transport is kind of rubbish Tell me you're an American without telling me you're an American[0]. If travel times, cost, and availability were actually equal, you'd pick public transit every time, because you don't have to focus on the cognitively stressful task of operating a motor vehicle. The reason why you care about being driven directly to your destination is specifically because the availability is so poor and gaps in the network get papered over with shittons of walking. The car has an analogous 'last mile' problem - i.e. finding a place to legally park it at your destination. We fixed that by mandating free parking everywhere. This pushes buildings away from one another, which means walking is even less viable, which exacerbates the traffic issue with lots of short trips. It also disaggregates traffic flows, which makes availability more expensive to produce, et cetera. [0] Or Canadian.

mannykannot 3y ago

When a person retracts a statement about a wealthy individual, one may reasonably wonder whether it was done under legal pressure. In this case, however, it seems that Ashlee Vance feels it is his words that are being taken out of context to see an attempt to quash high-speed rail: https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-california-high-spee-1849402460 https://jalopnik.com/did-musk-propose-hyperloop-to-stop-cali... “The Boring Company is one of [Musk’s] ventures that I’ve never understood, really,” Vance replied. “I totally get your point. In general, though, there’s no part of me that believes Elon was trying to kill public transport so people would stay in cars. I just don’t believe that.... Elon didn’t even need to bemoan the high-speed rail project for it to undermine itself.”

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

sdenton4 3y ago

"Who Framed Roger Rabbit" is a whimsical retelling of the destruction of LA's public transit system on behalf of the car industry, who were considering to get highways built and lock people into car ownership. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Framed_Roger_Rabbit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Framed_Roger_Rabbit