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I think most miss is that what the media refers to as "Houthis", is the de facto Shia Government of Yemen. Pointing this out because some of the comments read

I think most miss is that what the media refers to as "Houthis", is the de facto Shia Government of Yemen. Pointing this out because some of the comments read as bafflement over their organization and equipment. They are not a rag tag collection of villagers who decided pirating is the best path forward. They are often trained military.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> is the de facto Shia Government of Yemen They “exert de facto authority over the bulk of North Yemen” [1]. The problem is there is no single person who controls their armed groups. So striking a deal with one person provides zero assurance around what the others will do. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement#Houthi-controlled_areas_of_Yemen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement#Houthi-contr...
- no_wizard 3y ago
  I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders? I know its a complex political problem, but I still don't get how in 2023 we still have warlords and quasi-states like this. Is the government of Yemen so incompetent they can't exert any control over these areas? I would believe that, to be honest. I'm simply baffled is all.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders In the Houthi's case, they're a clan. The entire clan pitched in because they were persecuted under Saleh - businessmen, service men, low level govenenent officials, etc. Familial and Clan traditons are still a thing.
    - no_wizard 3y ago
      Middle East politics have always felt beyond my understanding. I know we (as in western countries, specifically the US and the UK, but also others) contributed greatly to this mess (and still do to this day, in multiple ways). That said, at some point, you expect things to normalize, because fundamentally people should be conflict adverse, however, it seems this region has an unusually high rate of conflicts that aren't strictly due to massive government failing in succession, since it appears Middle Eastern governments have been in power a long time (thus, can establish a relative order) but seem unable to control their own country within their own borders still. Which i suppose is indeed government failure, just of a different nature than one would typically imagine (IE, losing total control)
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Clan dynamics aren't only a Middle Eastern thing. They happen in every culture or society where family ties matter. For example, Guangdong's rise in electronics assembly thanks to Cantonese business families in Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore investing in Taiwan and then co-investing in Guangdong. > it appears Middle Eastern governments have been in power a long time Most are stable. Aside from Libya, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen they are humming along. > people should be conflict adverse People are conflict adverse. The issue is a states like Yemen, Syria, and Iraq just straight up imploded and collapsed, so people reverted to family relations. If you ever wondered what the world would look like after the apocalypse, it doesn't look like Fallout or The Last of Us - it looks like Yemen, Syria, Nepal, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Lebanon, etc
        alephnerd 3y ago
        ^ edit to above Cantonese business families (eg. Shiniwatra/Qiu) in Thailand/HK/SG/MY investing in factories in Guangdong Hokkien business families (eg. Tan Kah Kee, like the chem building at UC Berkeley by Evan's Hall) in SG/MY investing in Taiwan and then coinvesting with Taiwanese in Guangdong Teochew business families (eg. Chearavanont/Xie, Li Ka Shing, etc) in TH/SG/MY investing in Guangdong
      - 3y ago
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    It often happens because the country never made any sense. There used to be two Yemens caught between the Ottomans and the British. The North became an independent kingdom and then a republic, while the South was first a British protectorate and then a communist state. Both had civil wars, and there were at least two wars between the two. When communism fell in Europe, the two Yemens unified and had a civil war. Then there were a couple of decades of uneasy peace before the current war.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      4 Yemens not 2 Aden Colony was it's own thing until the emergency. Basically an middle eastern Hong Kong or Singapore The southern Emirates were their own thing until the late 60s Hadhramut was it's own protectorate until 1967. North Yemen (where the Houthis are from) was in the midst of a civil war between Commies and Zaidis. The Commies won, but the Zaidis got the last laugh by overthrowing Saleh and starting the Houthi movement.
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    > I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. Every "country" was once like this, it was the norm not the exception. Look at Feudal Japan for example. The nation-state is a modern invention (it's a social construct with associated institutions to enforce it) that requires a bunch of preconditions that obviously aren't going to hold up if you apply enough stress. It doesn't help that the national boundaries of many countries in the Middle East were drawn up arbitrarily after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. These aren't naturally emerging countries. They're arbitrary borders that contain warring tribes within those borders. Such as the Kurds who are split up among 3 countries.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Much of the arms are smuggled in from Iran. The Iranians use the Houthis as proxies to harass their enemies in Saudi Arabia and Israel. Several arms shipments have been intercepted in recent years but others are getting thought; it's impossible to stop and search every vessel in such a busy shipping channel.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    >I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders? The global reality is no government on earth can control a majority of the population without their consent. Every aspect of government control relies humans, and if they refuse to participate, you need other humans to make them.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > So striking a deal with one person provides zero assurance around what the others will do They're primarily a clan/tribe - al-Houthi. It's fairly organized like other clan systems. The issue is they don't want to negotiate. They have bad blood stretching from the Saleh government and even earlier - the same way how Daesh is able to hold Deir ez-Zur because of Al-Bakr support.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > fairly organized like other clan systems Embedded with foreign fighters. (EDIT: Nvm.)
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Embedded with IRGC advisors, not fighters. The Houthi movement isn't a pan-International Shia movement like Liwa Fateymoun, Liwa Zainebiyoun, Hezbollah, etc. Zaidis are technically Shia, but also base it on ethnic and familial ties.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> is the de facto Shia Government of Yemen They “exert de facto authority over the bulk of North Yemen” [1]. The problem is there is no single person who controls their armed groups. So striking a deal with one person provides zero assurance around what the others will do. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement#Houthi-controlled_areas_of_Yemen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement#Houthi-contr...

no_wizard 3y ago
I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders? I know its a complex political problem, but I still don't get how in 2023 we still have warlords and quasi-states like this. Is the government of Yemen so incompetent they can't exert any control over these areas? I would believe that, to be honest. I'm simply baffled is all.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders In the Houthi's case, they're a clan. The entire clan pitched in because they were persecuted under Saleh - businessmen, service men, low level govenenent officials, etc. Familial and Clan traditons are still a thing.
  - no_wizard 3y ago
    Middle East politics have always felt beyond my understanding. I know we (as in western countries, specifically the US and the UK, but also others) contributed greatly to this mess (and still do to this day, in multiple ways). That said, at some point, you expect things to normalize, because fundamentally people should be conflict adverse, however, it seems this region has an unusually high rate of conflicts that aren't strictly due to massive government failing in succession, since it appears Middle Eastern governments have been in power a long time (thus, can establish a relative order) but seem unable to control their own country within their own borders still. Which i suppose is indeed government failure, just of a different nature than one would typically imagine (IE, losing total control)
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Clan dynamics aren't only a Middle Eastern thing. They happen in every culture or society where family ties matter. For example, Guangdong's rise in electronics assembly thanks to Cantonese business families in Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore investing in Taiwan and then co-investing in Guangdong. > it appears Middle Eastern governments have been in power a long time Most are stable. Aside from Libya, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Yemen they are humming along. > people should be conflict adverse People are conflict adverse. The issue is a states like Yemen, Syria, and Iraq just straight up imploded and collapsed, so people reverted to family relations. If you ever wondered what the world would look like after the apocalypse, it doesn't look like Fallout or The Last of Us - it looks like Yemen, Syria, Nepal, Myanmar, Afghanistan, Lebanon, etc
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        ^ edit to above Cantonese business families (eg. Shiniwatra/Qiu) in Thailand/HK/SG/MY investing in factories in Guangdong Hokkien business families (eg. Tan Kah Kee, like the chem building at UC Berkeley by Evan's Hall) in SG/MY investing in Taiwan and then coinvesting with Taiwanese in Guangdong Teochew business families (eg. Chearavanont/Xie, Li Ka Shing, etc) in TH/SG/MY investing in Guangdong
    - 3y ago
- jltsiren 3y ago
  It often happens because the country never made any sense. There used to be two Yemens caught between the Ottomans and the British. The North became an independent kingdom and then a republic, while the South was first a British protectorate and then a communist state. Both had civil wars, and there were at least two wars between the two. When communism fell in Europe, the two Yemens unified and had a civil war. Then there were a couple of decades of uneasy peace before the current war.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    4 Yemens not 2 Aden Colony was it's own thing until the emergency. Basically an middle eastern Hong Kong or Singapore The southern Emirates were their own thing until the late 60s Hadhramut was it's own protectorate until 1967. North Yemen (where the Houthis are from) was in the midst of a civil war between Commies and Zaidis. The Commies won, but the Zaidis got the last laugh by overthrowing Saleh and starting the Houthi movement.
- hackerlight 3y ago
  > I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. Every "country" was once like this, it was the norm not the exception. Look at Feudal Japan for example. The nation-state is a modern invention (it's a social construct with associated institutions to enforce it) that requires a bunch of preconditions that obviously aren't going to hold up if you apply enough stress. It doesn't help that the national boundaries of many countries in the Middle East were drawn up arbitrarily after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. These aren't naturally emerging countries. They're arbitrary borders that contain warring tribes within those borders. Such as the Kurds who are split up among 3 countries.
- nradov 3y ago
  Much of the arms are smuggled in from Iran. The Iranians use the Houthis as proxies to harass their enemies in Saudi Arabia and Israel. Several arms shipments have been intercepted in recent years but others are getting thought; it's impossible to stop and search every vessel in such a busy shipping channel.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  >I for the life of me can't figure out how countries end up in situations where a large subset of said population is not only armed by effectively uncontrollable by the government. How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders? The global reality is no government on earth can control a majority of the population without their consent. Every aspect of government control relies humans, and if they refuse to participate, you need other humans to make them.
alephnerd 3y ago
> So striking a deal with one person provides zero assurance around what the others will do They're primarily a clan/tribe - al-Houthi. It's fairly organized like other clan systems. The issue is they don't want to negotiate. They have bad blood stretching from the Saleh government and even earlier - the same way how Daesh is able to hold Deir ez-Zur because of Al-Bakr support.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > fairly organized like other clan systems Embedded with foreign fighters. (EDIT: Nvm.)
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Embedded with IRGC advisors, not fighters. The Houthi movement isn't a pan-International Shia movement like Liwa Fateymoun, Liwa Zainebiyoun, Hezbollah, etc. Zaidis are technically Shia, but also base it on ethnic and familial ties.