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It's fake open-source. A charade. Install AOSP and see how useless the phone becomes. You'll have missing hardware drivers and no Google apps. They've also remo

It's fake open-source. A charade. Install AOSP and see how useless the phone becomes. You'll have missing hardware drivers and no Google apps. They've also removed the messaging app and dialer from AOSP. The foundation is open-source but nearly everything in userspace is closed-source. https://www.androidauthority.com/google-kill-android-aosp-dialer-messages-app-3334980/ https://www.androidauthority.com/google-kill-android-aosp-di... Edit- There is also no browser in AOSP, just webview, which is enough to look at the F-Droid website but not download and install F-Droid. https://web.archive.org/web/20131225075731/http://www.unwiredview.com/2013/11/21/android-4-4-kitkat-ships-without-browser-app-oems-have-to-license-chrome-or-build-their-own/ https://web.archive.org/web/20131225075731/http://www.unwire... > Android 4.4+ KitKat ships without browser app. OEMs have to license Chrome or build their own > According to Android developer and author Maximiliano Firtman, he just got official confirmation that KitKat “… doesn’t ship with any browser, just the WebView. The emulator has it but not real devices. It’s up to each vendor to create a browser app using the WebView (such as Samsung) or to get license to preinstall Chrome.”

efdee 3y ago
So you have to write a replacement for the Google apps and get driver support. Sounds a hell of a lot easier than writing your entire OS from scratch.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- AshamedCaptain 3y ago
  Or not? One example is that there are more OSes than there are for example kernels. There were (even before Android) _multiple_ Linux-based operating systems designed for PDAs and/or phones (remember GPE? Qtopia? etc), and there are (even after Android) multiple non-Android Linux-based operating systems for phones. Frankly, evidence seems to point that Google borrowed from the community much more than they gave back.
dataangel 3y ago
Presumably there are open source apps you can install on top of AOSP that let you message and dial though?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Yep. I just find it funny- it's an operating system for a phone yet provides no way to use it as a phone without downloading a 3rd party app or writing your own. This would be like if a laptop came with no screen or a car came with no wheels. Just add your own! Why should you expect basic functionality!?
  - twism 3y ago
    used to be... but android is a full fledged OS in a lot of things that are not phones (TVs, cars, streaming sticks, etc)
  - maxwell 3y ago
    It's an OS for mobile devices, no mention of "phones" on the project site (https://source.android.com https://source.android.com) and lots of Android devices don't have cell service. Doesn't seem unreasonable to bring your own dialing and voice calling app(s) if you want a UI for punching in formatted E.164 identifiers and making PSTN calls.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    It would be like if a laptop came with no ... preinstalled apps to do a bunch of things that you might want to do with a laptop.
myko 3y ago
This attitude is baffling to me. Android is clearly open source. Go build it yourself, it isn't terribly difficult.
twism 3y ago
that's how it's meant to be ... other companies that want to use android on their bespoke hardware need to write their own drivers/software/talk to their on servers anyways. If I put AOSP on my own device and it's talking to Google folks will start complaining the other way ... "why is this in AOSP?"
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  AOSP has a lot of Google in it- the first thing you'll see is a big anachronistic Google search bar.
  - twism 3y ago
    that's just the "Launcher" app AOSP comes with. most folks using AOSP (commercially) use a different launcher for their own needs
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      It's part of AOSP- is this it in their git tree? https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/Launcher/ https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/Laun...
      - twism 3y ago
        yes and so is the "Settings" app. not sure i understand your point
        refulgentis 3y ago
        I'm honestly surprised at the intensity with which people are going to bat for this (context: used to work on Android and generally have a dim view of the open source-ness https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725926) If I'm understanding you both right, I'd say their point is: - it's not very open source if the only thing you can rely on is "API shim on top of Linux kernel", there's to some approximation no phone app, no launcher, no Settings, no browser. Those are hard! - It's doubly so if _the apps for this open source OS regularly rely on GMS APIs_, which require a commercial relationship with Google. and your point is: - There _is_ a phone app, launcher, Settings, and browser. No one said the OS and a _full modern mobile application suite_ are open source. - It is very good that the OS is open source and that shouldn't be discounted just because its non-trivial to get your own distro up and running. - completely putting words in your mouth now :) - the GMS APIs are things that _should_ be vendored, it'd be worse if Google's location tracking was baked into the OS. Also, vendors can provide shims that allow apps to call GMS APIs "headers" even if the impementer isn't GMS
tslocum 3y ago
As someone who does exactly this (I run LineageOS with microG) I can attest to the fact that a lot of apps just don't work without proprietary, non-AOSP components being present on your device (GMS aka Play Services). microG helps, and does result in increased functionality of these apps (for now) however large parts of the applications remain unusable. AOSP is open source, "Android" the brand and platform controlled by Google is largely proprietary (if you want most of your applications to run properly).
charcircuit 3y ago
>but nearly everything in userspace is closed-source. The part you are referring to is not part of AOSP. Different vendors all build their own OS for their devices on top of AOSP.
refulgentis 3y ago
^ this is correct and accurate. I worked on Android for several years and was struggling to find an entry point in the comments where people would be amenable to a message like this. You're either Samsung and have some bespoke deal with Google and get to negotiate out stuff such that you end up with a real, full, OS, or you're a nobody trying to make an increasingly bare version of the full thing work. The whole thing feels darn creaky too, Google teams outside the phone / tablet team infamously, constantly, struggled to work with it. Even today, my Google TV will sometimes freeze for 20-30 seconds after power on. I can't help thinking there's room for something much better, but, here we are. Many projects have lived and died on that shore. And if anything, I'm too negative on it. The flavored water dispenser, and a vending machine, I'm looking at both run on it.

efdee 3y ago

So you have to write a replacement for the Google apps and get driver support. Sounds a hell of a lot easier than writing your entire OS from scratch.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
AshamedCaptain 3y ago
Or not? One example is that there are more OSes than there are for example kernels. There were (even before Android) _multiple_ Linux-based operating systems designed for PDAs and/or phones (remember GPE? Qtopia? etc), and there are (even after Android) multiple non-Android Linux-based operating systems for phones. Frankly, evidence seems to point that Google borrowed from the community much more than they gave back.

dataangel 3y ago

Presumably there are open source apps you can install on top of AOSP that let you message and dial though?

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Yep. I just find it funny- it's an operating system for a phone yet provides no way to use it as a phone without downloading a 3rd party app or writing your own. This would be like if a laptop came with no screen or a car came with no wheels. Just add your own! Why should you expect basic functionality!?
- twism 3y ago
  used to be... but android is a full fledged OS in a lot of things that are not phones (TVs, cars, streaming sticks, etc)
- maxwell 3y ago
  It's an OS for mobile devices, no mention of "phones" on the project site (https://source.android.com https://source.android.com) and lots of Android devices don't have cell service. Doesn't seem unreasonable to bring your own dialing and voice calling app(s) if you want a UI for punching in formatted E.164 identifiers and making PSTN calls.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  It would be like if a laptop came with no ... preinstalled apps to do a bunch of things that you might want to do with a laptop.

myko 3y ago

This attitude is baffling to me. Android is clearly open source. Go build it yourself, it isn't terribly difficult.

twism 3y ago

that's how it's meant to be ... other companies that want to use android on their bespoke hardware need to write their own drivers/software/talk to their on servers anyways. If I put AOSP on my own device and it's talking to Google folks will start complaining the other way ... "why is this in AOSP?"

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
AOSP has a lot of Google in it- the first thing you'll see is a big anachronistic Google search bar.
- twism 3y ago
  that's just the "Launcher" app AOSP comes with. most folks using AOSP (commercially) use a different launcher for their own needs
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    It's part of AOSP- is this it in their git tree? https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/Launcher/ https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/Laun...
    - twism 3y ago
      yes and so is the "Settings" app. not sure i understand your point
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        I'm honestly surprised at the intensity with which people are going to bat for this (context: used to work on Android and generally have a dim view of the open source-ness https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725926) If I'm understanding you both right, I'd say their point is: - it's not very open source if the only thing you can rely on is "API shim on top of Linux kernel", there's to some approximation no phone app, no launcher, no Settings, no browser. Those are hard! - It's doubly so if _the apps for this open source OS regularly rely on GMS APIs_, which require a commercial relationship with Google. and your point is: - There _is_ a phone app, launcher, Settings, and browser. No one said the OS and a _full modern mobile application suite_ are open source. - It is very good that the OS is open source and that shouldn't be discounted just because its non-trivial to get your own distro up and running. - completely putting words in your mouth now :) - the GMS APIs are things that _should_ be vendored, it'd be worse if Google's location tracking was baked into the OS. Also, vendors can provide shims that allow apps to call GMS APIs "headers" even if the impementer isn't GMS

tslocum 3y ago

As someone who does exactly this (I run LineageOS with microG) I can attest to the fact that a lot of apps just don't work without proprietary, non-AOSP components being present on your device (GMS aka Play Services). microG helps, and does result in increased functionality of these apps (for now) however large parts of the applications remain unusable. AOSP is open source, "Android" the brand and platform controlled by Google is largely proprietary (if you want most of your applications to run properly).

charcircuit 3y ago

>but nearly everything in userspace is closed-source. The part you are referring to is not part of AOSP. Different vendors all build their own OS for their devices on top of AOSP.

refulgentis 3y ago

^ this is correct and accurate. I worked on Android for several years and was struggling to find an entry point in the comments where people would be amenable to a message like this. You're either Samsung and have some bespoke deal with Google and get to negotiate out stuff such that you end up with a real, full, OS, or you're a nobody trying to make an increasingly bare version of the full thing work. The whole thing feels darn creaky too, Google teams outside the phone / tablet team infamously, constantly, struggled to work with it. Even today, my Google TV will sometimes freeze for 20-30 seconds after power on. I can't help thinking there's room for something much better, but, here we are. Many projects have lived and died on that shore. And if anything, I'm too negative on it. The flavored water dispenser, and a vending machine, I'm looking at both run on it.