6 ms·

Could you explain why you think apple is the bad guy? They support SMS as the standard carrier-supported messaging protocol (in the states, not sure globally).

Could you explain why you think apple is the bad guy? They support SMS as the standard carrier-supported messaging protocol (in the states, not sure globally). They also have a private protocol for apple devices which they fully own and control. And they have now announced that next year they will be supporting RCS, the next-gen carrier-supported protocol. I think it's fair to say that Apple has been slow to adopt RCS - but I don't think that makes them the bad guy. (SMS is insecure, iMessage is a lock in that they use to their benefit, RCS has been on Android forever, etc etc etc)

andrewmutz 3y ago
> iMessage is a lock in that they use to their benefit This is why I think they are the bad guy. They aren't passively benefiting from an iPhone network effect, they are actively and aggressively prevent workarounds that users can do to get around their lock-in. During the 90s, Apple was the victim of similar behavior by Microsoft, and most tech people correctly vilified Microsoft for this behavior. Now Apple is acting as the villain and we should call that out.
- hraedon 3y ago
  Apple restricting a free service to Apple's own users is not even remotely the same as Microsoft's various forms of skullduggery and I don't know how you can make the comparison seriously. It has never been easier to switch platforms, and the gulf between iOS and Android has never been shallower. Android users not having access to one also-ran messaging service is not some sort of fundamental injustice, and Apple is not a villain for building features that they think will appeal to their customers. It's sort of their whole business!
- MBCook 3y ago
  What do you mean by get around their lock in? You mean that only Apple users can use iMessage? How do you think Apple pays is for that? It’s subsidized through device cost. I get why people hate the App Store rules and no side loading, etc. but that’s a different situation in my mind. Why should Apple have to give Android users free service?
  - bhelkey 3y ago
    > Why should Apple have to give Android users free service? Who said anything about free? Apple could charge Android users.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      That’s fair. No one has said free. But I have a sneaking suspicion the instant Apple releases a paid Android app HN would be having this exact same discussion, except complaining it’s not free.
      - bhelkey 3y ago
        I cannot say how HN would respond but Beeper's whole business model is charging users for iMessage.
- etblg 3y ago
  In case anyone thinks its an overstatement, no, it's not. The only reason iMessage isn't available on Android, is because Craig Federighi explicitly wants it iPhone only to lock users in to iPhones. https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1589450766506692609?lang=en https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1589450766506692609?la...
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Right. But it’s a service Apple created to add value to Apple devices. It’s subsidized by people purchasing those devices. Why should they have to give it to Android? I just don’t see that quote as a smoking gun. Why isn’t that Apple‘s choice to make?
    - etblg 3y ago
      Well from some logical point of view I don't know if I have a good case to argue off the top of my head, nor do I want to come up with one. On the other hand, its because it fucking sucks. It's the largest company in the world (by market cap) which has a revenue of a third of a trillion dollars every year. They can afford to make it free but they don't for their own gain. All their competitors make their myriad of chat apps (that only Americans don't seem to want to use) free and available on as many platforms as possible. The only real reason Apple doesn't is because they want to hoard more and more of their money and become an even bigger company. That just sucks, it's shitty, it's worse for the world. They have hundreds of billions of cash reserves that they don't even know what to do with. I don't give a shit if it's their right or whatever to do it, I still think it sucks and is worse for everyone who isn't a VP at Apple. Open standards are nice, decentralization is nice, having options and choice and cross-platform things are nice. Having a gigantic company make a choice to create a silo where they're the only ones allowed to use it is not nice.
      - MBCook 3y ago
        I totally get the “this sucks it should be better argument”. And I get people wanting laws to fix it. What I have trouble with are the people who confuse that with existing law say Apple is doing illegal things, which has been sadly common in these threads.
MBCook 3y ago
That’s kind of why I’ve been very surprised by this whole thing. Apple made an Apple service for Apple users. Because no one else has succeeded in the US at taking over a large chunk of the market Apple became de facto bad and loses their rights. As almost every thread has pointed out, this situation is very unique to the US. Almost everywhere else other apps have taken over. So it’s not like Apple is PREVENTING people from using other apps. People just like it better. Just like most people like Google better as their search engine. It has a huge market share too but no one seems mad about that. (Their tying that to advertising IS horrible, but not an angle in the iMessage analogy) And as you said, Apple has announced RCS support. So I wonder if any of this will even matter much in a year or so.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
Anti green bubble discrimination is directly responsible for the rise of large amounts of incels in America. Make no mistake, it’s a meme among gen Z about how if a man has an android phone, they better hide it for at least 3 dates as a woman seeing them having an android phone is enough to get them ghosted on subsequent dates. There are literally hundreds of articles written about green bubble discrimination in the dating world. Before the knee jerk downvoted, please google my claims and read some of them.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Idiots who are rejected by women will blame anything except their own behavior. There are plenty of men who have android phones who date women with iPhones. Even if the bubble color were the same those men would be rejected anyway for not having an iPhone. I guess the government should mandate all phones look the same to prevent further discrimination against those without iDevices.
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      I’m aware of the articles, and my point stands.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      You can't discount someone's response solely due to the speed at which they can think and respond. Utterly ridiculous.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    And if this were true and getting a women is important to the individual, than just get the iphone until you get the girl. People spend money to show their value to mates through cars, clothes, jewelry, haircuts, etc ad infinitum.
  - 3y ago
bbatha 3y ago
> RCS, the next-gen carrier-supported protocol. RCS is pretty old at this point, almost a decade. But its also not as open a protocol as it says on the tin. Android is using a ton of extensions, notably end to end encryption, that are not standardized and the infrastructure is hard to run. Carriers are for the most part using google rcs infrastructure or users are accessing google infrastructure directly because the only relevant RCS users are android users who default to not using carrier RCS servers that don't have the google extensions. So its really an "open" protocol managed by google.[1][2] Somewhat of an upgrade over the closed ecosystem of imessage in principal but RCS isn't the open protocol win that many fantasize about; it feels more like hoping on to a product that's in the late extend and extinguish phase. 1: https://9to5google.com/2023/09/21/t-mobile-rcs-google-jibe/ https://9to5google.com/2023/09/21/t-mobile-rcs-google-jibe/ 2: https://9to5google.com/2023/06/09/att-rcs-jibe-google/ https://9to5google.com/2023/06/09/att-rcs-jibe-google/
- jrnichols 3y ago
  That is the thing about RCS.. it seems like a whole lot more of it is proprietary Google product than many people realize. I would not be surprised if there was another patent stew going on with Google's RCS extensions.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  US carriers only comitted to RCS in 2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/20/22584443/verizon-android-messages-rcs https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/20/22584443/verizon-android-... The rollout has been pretty slow, fragmented, and annoying.
  - bbatha 3y ago
    In large part because of Google's cajoling and creation of Jibe. The carriers view messaging as a software product. At this point because basically every phone is running android or ios thus supporting a lower level carrier protocol is of questionable value for them when anyone can submit an app and run their own infrastructure to support a messaging protocol.

andrewmutz 3y ago

> iMessage is a lock in that they use to their benefit This is why I think they are the bad guy. They aren't passively benefiting from an iPhone network effect, they are actively and aggressively prevent workarounds that users can do to get around their lock-in. During the 90s, Apple was the victim of similar behavior by Microsoft, and most tech people correctly vilified Microsoft for this behavior. Now Apple is acting as the villain and we should call that out.

hraedon 3y ago
Apple restricting a free service to Apple's own users is not even remotely the same as Microsoft's various forms of skullduggery and I don't know how you can make the comparison seriously. It has never been easier to switch platforms, and the gulf between iOS and Android has never been shallower. Android users not having access to one also-ran messaging service is not some sort of fundamental injustice, and Apple is not a villain for building features that they think will appeal to their customers. It's sort of their whole business!
MBCook 3y ago
What do you mean by get around their lock in? You mean that only Apple users can use iMessage? How do you think Apple pays is for that? It’s subsidized through device cost. I get why people hate the App Store rules and no side loading, etc. but that’s a different situation in my mind. Why should Apple have to give Android users free service?
- bhelkey 3y ago
  > Why should Apple have to give Android users free service? Who said anything about free? Apple could charge Android users.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    That’s fair. No one has said free. But I have a sneaking suspicion the instant Apple releases a paid Android app HN would be having this exact same discussion, except complaining it’s not free.
    - bhelkey 3y ago
      I cannot say how HN would respond but Beeper's whole business model is charging users for iMessage.
etblg 3y ago
In case anyone thinks its an overstatement, no, it's not. The only reason iMessage isn't available on Android, is because Craig Federighi explicitly wants it iPhone only to lock users in to iPhones. https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1589450766506692609?lang=en https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1589450766506692609?la...
- MBCook 3y ago
  Right. But it’s a service Apple created to add value to Apple devices. It’s subsidized by people purchasing those devices. Why should they have to give it to Android? I just don’t see that quote as a smoking gun. Why isn’t that Apple‘s choice to make?
  - etblg 3y ago
    Well from some logical point of view I don't know if I have a good case to argue off the top of my head, nor do I want to come up with one. On the other hand, its because it fucking sucks. It's the largest company in the world (by market cap) which has a revenue of a third of a trillion dollars every year. They can afford to make it free but they don't for their own gain. All their competitors make their myriad of chat apps (that only Americans don't seem to want to use) free and available on as many platforms as possible. The only real reason Apple doesn't is because they want to hoard more and more of their money and become an even bigger company. That just sucks, it's shitty, it's worse for the world. They have hundreds of billions of cash reserves that they don't even know what to do with. I don't give a shit if it's their right or whatever to do it, I still think it sucks and is worse for everyone who isn't a VP at Apple. Open standards are nice, decentralization is nice, having options and choice and cross-platform things are nice. Having a gigantic company make a choice to create a silo where they're the only ones allowed to use it is not nice.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      I totally get the “this sucks it should be better argument”. And I get people wanting laws to fix it. What I have trouble with are the people who confuse that with existing law say Apple is doing illegal things, which has been sadly common in these threads.

MBCook 3y ago

That’s kind of why I’ve been very surprised by this whole thing. Apple made an Apple service for Apple users. Because no one else has succeeded in the US at taking over a large chunk of the market Apple became de facto bad and loses their rights. As almost every thread has pointed out, this situation is very unique to the US. Almost everywhere else other apps have taken over. So it’s not like Apple is PREVENTING people from using other apps. People just like it better. Just like most people like Google better as their search engine. It has a huge market share too but no one seems mad about that. (Their tying that to advertising IS horrible, but not an angle in the iMessage analogy) And as you said, Apple has announced RCS support. So I wonder if any of this will even matter much in a year or so.

Der_Einzige 3y ago

Anti green bubble discrimination is directly responsible for the rise of large amounts of incels in America. Make no mistake, it’s a meme among gen Z about how if a man has an android phone, they better hide it for at least 3 dates as a woman seeing them having an android phone is enough to get them ghosted on subsequent dates. There are literally hundreds of articles written about green bubble discrimination in the dating world. Before the knee jerk downvoted, please google my claims and read some of them.

endisneigh 3y ago
Idiots who are rejected by women will blame anything except their own behavior. There are plenty of men who have android phones who date women with iPhones. Even if the bubble color were the same those men would be rejected anyway for not having an iPhone. I guess the government should mandate all phones look the same to prevent further discrimination against those without iDevices.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    I’m aware of the articles, and my point stands.
  - nickthegreek 3y ago
    You can't discount someone's response solely due to the speed at which they can think and respond. Utterly ridiculous.
- nickthegreek 3y ago
  And if this were true and getting a women is important to the individual, than just get the iphone until you get the girl. People spend money to show their value to mates through cars, clothes, jewelry, haircuts, etc ad infinitum.
- 3y ago

bbatha 3y ago

> RCS, the next-gen carrier-supported protocol. RCS is pretty old at this point, almost a decade. But its also not as open a protocol as it says on the tin. Android is using a ton of extensions, notably end to end encryption, that are not standardized and the infrastructure is hard to run. Carriers are for the most part using google rcs infrastructure or users are accessing google infrastructure directly because the only relevant RCS users are android users who default to not using carrier RCS servers that don't have the google extensions. So its really an "open" protocol managed by google.[1][2] Somewhat of an upgrade over the closed ecosystem of imessage in principal but RCS isn't the open protocol win that many fantasize about; it feels more like hoping on to a product that's in the late extend and extinguish phase. 1: https://9to5google.com/2023/09/21/t-mobile-rcs-google-jibe/ https://9to5google.com/2023/09/21/t-mobile-rcs-google-jibe/ 2: https://9to5google.com/2023/06/09/att-rcs-jibe-google/ https://9to5google.com/2023/06/09/att-rcs-jibe-google/

jrnichols 3y ago
That is the thing about RCS.. it seems like a whole lot more of it is proprietary Google product than many people realize. I would not be surprised if there was another patent stew going on with Google's RCS extensions.
madeofpalk 3y ago
US carriers only comitted to RCS in 2021 https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/20/22584443/verizon-android-messages-rcs https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/20/22584443/verizon-android-... The rollout has been pretty slow, fragmented, and annoying.
- bbatha 3y ago
  In large part because of Google's cajoling and creation of Jibe. The carriers view messaging as a software product. At this point because basically every phone is running android or ios thus supporting a lower level carrier protocol is of questionable value for them when anyone can submit an app and run their own infrastructure to support a messaging protocol.