4 ms·

Braking to avoid hitting an obstacle (like that tree branch in the first example) is hardly "acting unexpectedly". > "Acting unexpectedly" is one of the aspect

by adwn 3y ago

Braking to avoid hitting an obstacle (like that tree branch in the first example) is hardly "acting unexpectedly". > "Acting unexpectedly" is one of the aspects that makes dealing with mentally ill people anxiety-producing. Wat.

bumby 3y ago
But this certainly could be construed as unexpected: >"In August, a Waymo at an intersection “began to proceed forward” but then “slowed to a stop” and was hit from behind by an SUV." >"Wat." Are you saying you don't understand why unexpected behavior causes anxiety? It's a pretty well documented effect, from rats to humans.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  It was: > > "Acting unexpectedly" is one of the aspects that makes dealing with mentally ill people anxiety-producing. > Wat. The "Wat" probably refers to the fact that this seems unrelated. Dealing with mentally ill people is anxiety-inducing because they act unexpectedly... so what? Lots of things are unexpected. They shouldn't all be drawn into the analogy that says "well, that thing, plus a load of other things, can induce anxiety, therefore that thing should be tarnished with the same brush as all of those things." People drive in unexpected ways all the time. Of all the criticisms to level at them, "the thing you're doing plus a load of other stuff can induce anxiety" probably isn't top of the list.
  - bumby 3y ago
    I am not painting them with the same brush, I'm drawing an analogy to help people understand the context better. In this case, public policy will dictate to what extent AVs are allowed on public roadways. That, in turn, is dictated by trust. I'm pointing out that "trust" may be incompatible with "unpredictability." I'm not sure what throughline you're drawing, but you seem overly hung up on the use of the word "anxiety," and it's causing you to miss the real point. So to put a finer point on it, people need to acknowledge that public trust is necessary to wide-scale adoption of AV tech. Plenty of psychological research shows how we aren't intuitively wired to understand statistics. So all the bleating about statistics may be necessary, but not sufficient, to get wide-scale adoption of AVs on public roadways.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > seem overly hung up on the use of the word "anxiety," It wasn't just the word anxiety; that's a mischaracterisation, and another psychology-adjacent misstep with "hung up on". Your point wasn't great, or at least was very poorly articulated, and that's what caused me to "miss the real point". You seem to have clarified it with this comment, so my challenge to your original point seems to have helped.
      - bumby 3y ago
        Apologies if you think it was a mischaracterization. I was trying to figure out why you missed (what I consider) a pretty straightforward connection between theory-of-mind and predicting behavior. In retrospect, using a term like "mentally ill" is too loaded of term and distracts people from making that point because it can be triggering. I still think its a valid point, though, and plenty of people seemed to follow it just fine.
  - billnad 3y ago
    This makes me think of people that change two lanes very quickly to be able to turn at that next corner. We all see them, they piss us off through their bad planning but in the end I don't think an autonomous vehicle would ever try this, depending on programming of course. Would also be nice to see all incidents, not just injury incidents to see what kind of unexpected "mistakes" these cars are making
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      It shouldn't, simply because it always knows where it's going well ahead of the lane change.
  - sevagh 3y ago
    >Dealing with mentally ill people is anxiety-inducing because they act unexpectedly... so what? Lots of things are unexpected. I think you're understating it. Mentally ill people act far off the cuff. If I'm walking outside, people can behave unexpectedly (but within the parameters of behavior that doesn't make me anxious). Imagine: stopping instantly to bend over and tie one's shoes or to look at a storefront. Taking up multiple spaces on the sidewalk. Dropping an item that causes a loud noise. All of these are unexpected movements that require a reaction. However, if somebody screams about CIA conspiracies or has very erratic mannerisms, that would create more anxiety. So, apparently their point is that AI behavior on the roads might be more jarring than normal jackass human behavior on the roads.
- adwn 3y ago
  > Are you saying you don't understand why unexpected behavior causes anxiety? It's a pretty well documented effect, from rats to humans. I'm saying that your leap from "the car in front is behaving unexpectedly because you don't have all the information it has" to "a bunch of mentally ill drivers" is such a complete non-sequitur that it's deserving of a Wat [1]. [1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
  - bumby 3y ago
    I understand how you could miss it, but the sequiter is "unexpected behavior". Why do mentally ill people cause some people anxiety? Because they may behave erratically.* In other words, we have a lot more difficulty ascertaining what they are thinking, and by extension, predicting their behavior. The same can be said for the general public sentiment towards AVs. * I also understand "mental illness" is a blanket category and I'm not using it as a stigmatizing term. It may be stretching the analogy too much, but it's simply a proxy for "I have a hard time predicting what's going through this persons mind"
- fennecbutt 3y ago
  Sounds like SUV driver was on their phone at the junction, then continued to mess about with it as the cars pulled away. I imagine the collision speed was quite low since they just left the junction. There's a reason things like following distance and looking in front of you while driving™ exist.
toast0 3y ago
> Braking to avoid hitting an obstacle (like that tree branch in the first example) is hardly "acting unexpectedly". Depends on the size of the tree branch. But also, being hit from behind at low speeds was a pretty common thing in early testing in Mountain View, when they were using the Google name on cars. That there are only a handful of incidents reported in this report means either the software has gotten better at communicating its intent to other drivers, or the driving public is aware that Waymo cars are way more cautious --- if they only make lane changes and unprotected turns by engraved invitation and everyone knows it, that's fine too. In the early days, it seemed like it might be appropriate to install a 1979 regulation 5 mph rear bumper on these cars, because they'd likely get hit often enough.
- bumby 3y ago
  >this report means either the software has gotten better at communicating its intent to other drivers, or the driving public is aware that Waymo cars are way more cautious There's at least one other alternative: selection bias. Since there is no standard industry definition, companies are allowed to not report many incidents. >"Waymo, on the other hand, ran complex computer simulations after each disengagement, and only reported to the DMV those where it believed the driver was correct to take charge, rather than being overly cautious."[1] So it may not be reported unless it meets Waymo's (non-independent) selection criteria. I think most people can at least recognize there is a potential conflict of interest when objective reporting isn't required. [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/have-selfdriving-cars-stopped-getting-better https://spectrum.ieee.org/have-selfdriving-cars-stopped-gett...
- ghaff 3y ago
  >Depends on the size of the tree branch. Our thinking fast reflexes are to pretty much avoid any obstacle whether living or dead. Hopefully our thinking slow brain has time to do a proper evaluation before doing anything drastic.
- strangattractor 3y ago
  Breaking for a tree branch of any size seems preferable to running into highway barriers[1] and fire trucks[2]. [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11801138/apple-engineer-killed-in-tesla-crash-had-previously-complained-about-autopilot https://www.kqed.org/news/11801138/apple-engineer-killed-in-... [2] https://abc7news.com/tesla-autopilot-crash-driver-assist-crashes-into-fire-truck-walnut-creek-fatal/13144903/ https://abc7news.com/tesla-autopilot-crash-driver-assist-cra...

by adwn 3y ago

bumby 3y ago

But this certainly could be construed as unexpected: >"In August, a Waymo at an intersection “began to proceed forward” but then “slowed to a stop” and was hit from behind by an SUV." >"Wat." Are you saying you don't understand why unexpected behavior causes anxiety? It's a pretty well documented effect, from rats to humans.

robertlagrant 3y ago
It was: > > "Acting unexpectedly" is one of the aspects that makes dealing with mentally ill people anxiety-producing. > Wat. The "Wat" probably refers to the fact that this seems unrelated. Dealing with mentally ill people is anxiety-inducing because they act unexpectedly... so what? Lots of things are unexpected. They shouldn't all be drawn into the analogy that says "well, that thing, plus a load of other things, can induce anxiety, therefore that thing should be tarnished with the same brush as all of those things." People drive in unexpected ways all the time. Of all the criticisms to level at them, "the thing you're doing plus a load of other stuff can induce anxiety" probably isn't top of the list.
- bumby 3y ago
  I am not painting them with the same brush, I'm drawing an analogy to help people understand the context better. In this case, public policy will dictate to what extent AVs are allowed on public roadways. That, in turn, is dictated by trust. I'm pointing out that "trust" may be incompatible with "unpredictability." I'm not sure what throughline you're drawing, but you seem overly hung up on the use of the word "anxiety," and it's causing you to miss the real point. So to put a finer point on it, people need to acknowledge that public trust is necessary to wide-scale adoption of AV tech. Plenty of psychological research shows how we aren't intuitively wired to understand statistics. So all the bleating about statistics may be necessary, but not sufficient, to get wide-scale adoption of AVs on public roadways.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > seem overly hung up on the use of the word "anxiety," It wasn't just the word anxiety; that's a mischaracterisation, and another psychology-adjacent misstep with "hung up on". Your point wasn't great, or at least was very poorly articulated, and that's what caused me to "miss the real point". You seem to have clarified it with this comment, so my challenge to your original point seems to have helped.
    - bumby 3y ago
      Apologies if you think it was a mischaracterization. I was trying to figure out why you missed (what I consider) a pretty straightforward connection between theory-of-mind and predicting behavior. In retrospect, using a term like "mentally ill" is too loaded of term and distracts people from making that point because it can be triggering. I still think its a valid point, though, and plenty of people seemed to follow it just fine.
- billnad 3y ago
  This makes me think of people that change two lanes very quickly to be able to turn at that next corner. We all see them, they piss us off through their bad planning but in the end I don't think an autonomous vehicle would ever try this, depending on programming of course. Would also be nice to see all incidents, not just injury incidents to see what kind of unexpected "mistakes" these cars are making
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    It shouldn't, simply because it always knows where it's going well ahead of the lane change.
- sevagh 3y ago
  >Dealing with mentally ill people is anxiety-inducing because they act unexpectedly... so what? Lots of things are unexpected. I think you're understating it. Mentally ill people act far off the cuff. If I'm walking outside, people can behave unexpectedly (but within the parameters of behavior that doesn't make me anxious). Imagine: stopping instantly to bend over and tie one's shoes or to look at a storefront. Taking up multiple spaces on the sidewalk. Dropping an item that causes a loud noise. All of these are unexpected movements that require a reaction. However, if somebody screams about CIA conspiracies or has very erratic mannerisms, that would create more anxiety. So, apparently their point is that AI behavior on the roads might be more jarring than normal jackass human behavior on the roads.
adwn 3y ago
> Are you saying you don't understand why unexpected behavior causes anxiety? It's a pretty well documented effect, from rats to humans. I'm saying that your leap from "the car in front is behaving unexpectedly because you don't have all the information it has" to "a bunch of mentally ill drivers" is such a complete non-sequitur that it's deserving of a Wat [1]. [1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
- bumby 3y ago
  I understand how you could miss it, but the sequiter is "unexpected behavior". Why do mentally ill people cause some people anxiety? Because they may behave erratically.* In other words, we have a lot more difficulty ascertaining what they are thinking, and by extension, predicting their behavior. The same can be said for the general public sentiment towards AVs. * I also understand "mental illness" is a blanket category and I'm not using it as a stigmatizing term. It may be stretching the analogy too much, but it's simply a proxy for "I have a hard time predicting what's going through this persons mind"
fennecbutt 3y ago
Sounds like SUV driver was on their phone at the junction, then continued to mess about with it as the cars pulled away. I imagine the collision speed was quite low since they just left the junction. There's a reason things like following distance and looking in front of you while driving™ exist.

toast0 3y ago

> Braking to avoid hitting an obstacle (like that tree branch in the first example) is hardly "acting unexpectedly". Depends on the size of the tree branch. But also, being hit from behind at low speeds was a pretty common thing in early testing in Mountain View, when they were using the Google name on cars. That there are only a handful of incidents reported in this report means either the software has gotten better at communicating its intent to other drivers, or the driving public is aware that Waymo cars are way more cautious --- if they only make lane changes and unprotected turns by engraved invitation and everyone knows it, that's fine too. In the early days, it seemed like it might be appropriate to install a 1979 regulation 5 mph rear bumper on these cars, because they'd likely get hit often enough.

bumby 3y ago
>this report means either the software has gotten better at communicating its intent to other drivers, or the driving public is aware that Waymo cars are way more cautious There's at least one other alternative: selection bias. Since there is no standard industry definition, companies are allowed to not report many incidents. >"Waymo, on the other hand, ran complex computer simulations after each disengagement, and only reported to the DMV those where it believed the driver was correct to take charge, rather than being overly cautious."[1] So it may not be reported unless it meets Waymo's (non-independent) selection criteria. I think most people can at least recognize there is a potential conflict of interest when objective reporting isn't required. [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/have-selfdriving-cars-stopped-getting-better https://spectrum.ieee.org/have-selfdriving-cars-stopped-gett...
ghaff 3y ago
>Depends on the size of the tree branch. Our thinking fast reflexes are to pretty much avoid any obstacle whether living or dead. Hopefully our thinking slow brain has time to do a proper evaluation before doing anything drastic.
strangattractor 3y ago
Breaking for a tree branch of any size seems preferable to running into highway barriers[1] and fire trucks[2]. [1] https://www.kqed.org/news/11801138/apple-engineer-killed-in-tesla-crash-had-previously-complained-about-autopilot https://www.kqed.org/news/11801138/apple-engineer-killed-in-... [2] https://abc7news.com/tesla-autopilot-crash-driver-assist-crashes-into-fire-truck-walnut-creek-fatal/13144903/ https://abc7news.com/tesla-autopilot-crash-driver-assist-cra...