15 ms·

Police get medical records without a warrant

249 points by feross 3y ago

bell-cot 3y ago
> According to the lawmakers, CVS, Kroger, and Rite Aid said that "their pharmacy staff face extreme pressure to immediately respond to law enforcement demands and, as such, the companies instruct their staff to process those requests in store." THIS. Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement - who can easily be armed, uniformed, belligerent, and right in their faces - is cruel and delusional.
- tomrod 3y ago
  Simply because some cops can be brigands doesn't really mean that we shouldn't have expectations of people. Bullies are always going to bully. Roll-over-and-take-it is a terrible corporate strategy!
  - swells34 3y ago
    Yeah, I have expectations... of the police. In most large cities, this is a guaranteed six figure income, with basically no education requirements. They are literally given an "above the law" status via qualified immunity. If they intimidate someone into doing something illegal, like giving up patient information, they should be culpable. Do not punish the weakest person in the power struggle, they are nearly always the victim.
- fredgrott 3y ago
  at the same time those firms put the license people at risk of losing their state license by compiling without that warrant..
  - sonicanatidae 3y ago
    This is the part that would piss me off as a PharmD. They spend a vast sum of time, money and energy to gain a PharmD, then some asshat company puts them in situations where their licenses could be at risk? Of course they do.
    - bell-cot 3y ago
      Theory: The state licensing boards are aware of the problem, and "neglect" to punish pharmacists who are caught in such situations with law enforcement.
      - tomrod 3y ago
        No, enforcement becomes roulette or leverage over people in these situations. Were I on the board of these companies, I'd be aghast and demand this clear operational issue, which threatens our capacity to provide pharmacy services long term, be remediated.
        sonicanatidae 3y ago
        I'd just move to an organization that doesn't callously put my license at risk. They sure af aren't going to toss me a lifetime check, when it happens.
      - sonicanatidae 3y ago
        This is not unlikely, but at the same time, to be put in a position where, in order to do your job, you have to rely on the understanding of "the government" is just shitty.
- codingdave 3y ago
  That part stood out to me as well, but because the article said that a subpoena is still required. And it is unclear to me if those pharmacies are at least asking to see it, or if they are telling their staff to handle any and all requests, no questions asked.
  - ClarityJones 3y ago
    I think it's a distinction without a difference. In this context, where this is no pending legal proceeding, a subpoena is just a request with no legal authority. The function of a real subpoena is to punish the recipient for failing to respond (i.e. held in contempt of court), because the request is made on behalf of the court and the court has the authority to compel production. Here, where there's no court case it's not really possible to have a real subpoena. I could equally issue a subpoena in the authority of my own name, and it would have just as much power (none).
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It seems like a well-drafted company policy posted and pointed to by the local store staff would be the right way to back up their customers and staff. “Here’s the phone number to corporate who is, by this policy, the only ones equipped and permitted to satisfy your request.” This also makes it so you don’t even send a car out anymore, but can handle the request electronically from the station.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Here’s how that would play out: You’re the only store manager out of all of the chain to have this policy. The Sherriff calls the Mayor who sends a “concerned” email to your VP of Sales. You standing up for your team not only gets you fired but now you’re on a list against the police. 2023 United States baby. Land of the free.
    - gruez 3y ago
      >Here’s how that would play out: You’re the only store manager out of all of the chain to have this policy. The parent post specifically says that it wold be company policy, so that wouldn't apply. >> It seems like a well-drafted company policy posted and pointed to by the local store staff would be the right way to back up their customers and staff.
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        The same power structure exists irrespective of where you jump into the value chain - The police are a legal gang that goes all the way to the President Instead of the Mayor, the Sheriff will go to some State Rep or congressperson and the same results happen. I've seen similar moves play out in the past in real life
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        serial_dev 3y ago
        Corruption and bending the rules will probably happen even with this system, but it raises the barrier, and if it's inconvenient enough, it will be only done for the most important cases. If every local sheriff can intimidate and bully a local pharmacist to get the information it's very different than if you need a congress person to call in a favor with supposedly one of the few people who have access to the information.
- tokai 3y ago
  Ofc we should expect them to stand up. They are breaking the law full stop. I would not give out information on my users, and would rather go the station. They can't do anything but trying to frighten you. I expect everyone with access to personal data do the same.
  - phatskat 3y ago
    I don’t expect someone in their early 20’s, being paid CVS wages, and dealing with a ton of people all day to necessarily have the best backbone in the face of an armed thug demanding information face to face. Respecting privacy should be a tenant of law enforcement, since that’s like one of our rights or something, but cops and police unions have been operating outside of the law for their entire history in the US. Obligatory ACAB
  - swells34 3y ago
    Are not the police conspiring to break the law then, at the very least? If I intimidated you into breaking the law, while armed, would I not also be culpable? The more I think about this, the more it seems the police should be the only ones culpable in that situation...
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Yes. The police cannot be assumed to be good guys, or even law-abiding.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > They can't do anything but trying to frighten you. Police can rob you, rape you, or murder you in the street and even if it's caught on camera they can still face zero meaningful consequences for that. We've certainly seen it happen. They can also arrest you for something like "obstruction" or "contempt of cop" and that's something you'd have to spend time and money on fighting later in the courts. Ongoing retaliation is something else to be concerned about. In any case, the can certainly do a lot besides "trying to frighten you"
  - Madmallard 3y ago
- rblatz 3y ago
  I think it’s expected that pharmacists be held to the same or higher standards than we held video store clerks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Privacy_Protection_Act#:~:text=Congress%20passed%20the%20VPPA%20after,to%20%242500%20in%20actual%20damages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Privacy_Protection_Act....
  - nativeit 3y ago
    It’s too bad law enforcement don’t seem to be held to any standards at all, then maybe folks who are not generally equipped to make legal determinations won’t be accountable for erring just because an unscrupulous officer or prosecutor misleads and/or intimidates them.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    Pharmacists are more overworked than video store clerks. By a huge margin. They're also not treated well by the major pharmacy chains.
  - aetch 3y ago
    Too bad they aren’t paid or treated at a higher standard.
  - swells34 3y ago
    Or perhaps the issue is law enforcement criminally intimidating these pharmacists and clerks. Seems they are the only ones that aren't held to any standard.
  - creer 3y ago
    Lawyers have to fight to get that to apply for digital video. So it would take a specific law to make that carry through to pharmacies. And for that matter, I doubt the video store law applies to bookstores. (A judge confirmation process ran in trouble because of video rental records - so a law was written ... which addresses only video rental. For maximum inefficiency or something.)
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement This seems trivial to solve. Subpoenas get forwarded to corporate legal and they handle releasing of records. It seems peculiar this isn't SOP now. Perhaps it's because pharmacists/managers cost less (in $ and accountability) than lawyers.
  - WilTimSon 3y ago
    This has the expectation that police wouldn't just pressure the clerk to do it themselves. The clerk says they'll forward it to corporate, the policeman tells him not to bother and hints that, you know, he is the one with the power here. How many people would ignore that and still do the bureaucratic procedure? Especially if the cop says it won't get back to legal and they'd be helping out on a case?
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      The standard corporate policy would be that pharmacists aren't authorized to release records. To do otherwise would risk their jobs and whatever other action follows an unauthorized release of records. With this policy across chains, judges would be skeptical of a cop who tried to bully a local records release. Even a rogue cop could understand this reality.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      Right, so we want to put brigands in prison regardless whether they are at times authorized to use the coercive force of the state.
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      Obviously, clerk shouldn't be able to access such data on a whim at all. Same as random "genius" in Apple Store can't access the customer iCloud data.
- ldayley 3y ago
  It takes real courage to stand up to a request in those circumstances. A notable example from a few years ago was this nurse [0] who was unlawfully arrested and forcefully dragged away by an officer when she refused to take blood samples from an unconscious patient without a warrant. Imagine how much more difficult it would be to resist this when you're a clerk in a retail store working in public. [0]: https://apnews.com/article/321440980fd54809a5bf8e404cfe4367 https://apnews.com/article/321440980fd54809a5bf8e404cfe4367 (Edited to add context)
  - monkaiju 3y ago
    https://app.copdb.org/incidents/2ea95420-2070-4c9d-8e72-f1c68fe11359 https://app.copdb.org/incidents/2ea95420-2070-4c9d-8e72-f1c6...
  - VBprogrammer 3y ago
    What makes it worse is that the person they were attempting to get the blood from was actually the innocent victim in a crash which resulted from a police chase. The police had no reason to believe the driver was under the influence.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      In fact even worse, I believe, was that the person being chased was LE-affiliated and was under the influence.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    After that happened, laws were passed to make it perfectly legal to get blood from unconscious patients without a warrant (https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/732852170/supreme-court-affirms-police-can-draw-blood-from-unconscious-drivers https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/732852170/supreme-court-affir...) and to help avoid the problem of doctors and nurses interfering with the demands of the police, departments in several states have started training officers to draw blood from suspects themselves right on the side of the road so there's no need to take most people to a hospital. Jeff Payne, the Utah cop who was fired after his violent arrest of that nurse went viral, later got hired by the Weber County Sheriff’s Office to work in the medical unit of the county jail.
- croisillon 3y ago
  i used to work at a place where we had (potentially) a lot of personal and movement information about the city inhabitants ; the police would regularly call the call-center and ask for information, the proper answer was "sure, send us a warrant by email" (and we would never see any warrant) but not every worker would react properly
- aredox 3y ago
  Librarians do it.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    Librarians are not overworked the way pharmacists are. To give you an idea, in a nearby Walgreens, we have pharmacists snapping at customers saying "We got your prescription only two days ago. It's not going to be ready that quickly!"
    - 93po 3y ago
      so glad i can order most of my meds delivered by mail now, pharmacies are awful for everyone
      - BeetleB 3y ago
        In my experience, going to one of the non-chain pharmacies (the type that don't sell laundry detergents) is always better. Either one tied to a clinic/hospital, or some independent one. With my pharmacy, I can always get it filled within an hour - I notify them before I head out.
        93po 3y ago
        My sample size of one agrees with this. Costco has also been decently good
- annoyingnoob 3y ago
  In the time before ubiquitous cell phones, I was a cashier at a gas station. One day a cop came in and asked to use the phone. I directed him to the pay phone. He told me that the pay phone was in use, not realizing that I could see the p[ay phone from where I was standing. He got belligerent and demanded the phone, he made a personal call to his wife. Later he pulled me over and gave me a bogus ticket for not signaling. Real nice people those police, better give them what they want or else.
  - phatskat 3y ago
    > better give them what they want or else A tale as old as the first police union: when the city tried to reign them in, the Portland Police politely threatened to walk off the job and the chief (iirc) casually showed up to negotiations with a dossier on one of the city councilors just laid out on the table next to his gun.
- caskstrength 3y ago
  > Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement - who can easily be armed, uniformed, belligerent, and right in their faces - is cruel and delusiona Why do "indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc." even have access to this? In the US any random pharmacy clerk has access to list of all drugs that customers have ever bought from them and also "medical records" (according to the article)? WTF?
  - soared 3y ago
    Pharmacists access drug records as a double check against doctors prescriptions. They look for drug interactions, call out side affects, etc. Their role provides important value so it would be difficult to design a system where they can access the info they need but law enforcement can’t request from (without a change to corporate policy/etc)
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      Why can't the doctor verify all of this before prescribing? Seems to be some weird US thing.
      - lupusreal 3y ago
        They're supposed to, but they sometimes make mistakes. Pharmacists are supposed to know about the sort of drugs they're selling so they can catch potentially lethal errors. Doing away with this safety net to.. avoid addressing police overreach directly is a bad idea.
        caskstrength 3y ago
        > They're supposed to, but they sometimes make mistakes. Pharmacists are supposed to know about the sort of drugs they're selling so they can catch potentially lethal errors. Are there any stats for how many potentially lethal errors they actually catch in practice?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Indeed. My wife is an ER charge nurse, and she often complains about the behavior of cops in the emergency room. They have someone on the edge of death and the cops often are in the room yelling at the nurses to get them to do a blood draw and drug screening. Cops need a warrant to get that, and even if they had a warrant in hand, performing the blood draw wouldn't even be considered until the patient is stabilized. But they never have a warrant, and the pressure the cops apply is withering. Most people -- even doctors and nurses -- would eventually cave. Fortunately, as the charge nurse, she's the one who has to approve such a thing, so the cops have to deal with her. And she's hard as a rock. They aren't going to make her wilt.
  - swells34 3y ago
    Well, we've spoiled our police force. We've provided them with ridiculous amounts of power, minimal oversight, and very rare and minor consequences. The behavior you describe is that of a spoiled child, used to getting what it wants immediately by throwing an abusive tantrum, consequences to others and rules be damned. Same reason they execute PIT maneuvers on busy roads, lead high speed chases through the middle of towns, and empty full magazines into densely populated areas, all things that police in other countries are trained not to do, trained to be patient and follow instead. They want it now, and anyone hurt along the way is just a casualty of war, not their problem or responsibility.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > The behavior you describe is that of a spoiled child This is exactly how she describes them. "Spoiled brats with guns".
- tiahura 3y ago
  The goofy kids at Verizon T-Mobile and ATT manage? Why can’t licensed pharmacy techs?
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    I'm not familiar with that...but are you comparing anonymous workers in a distant and "this call will be recorded..." call center to front-line workers, who may have an armed & angry "law" enforcement officer right in their face? If so, Apples != Oranges
    - tiahura 3y ago
      No, I mean the kids working at the local corporate store.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Medical in the US holds all the power. They literally control our health and well being. Their cartel decides when they want to cut off drugs and services. If we use the last 120 years of data, the medical cartels has won at every cross roads, and seemingly 5% raises every year(with 2% CPI...). Your entire healtcare records got leaked and now your SSN is on the internet(Beaumont)? OOPSIE but we can't use this data for science because HIPAA. Must keep healthcare data within the cartel for cartel uses only. Imagine if AI had all this data, it could just diagnose for free with offline local models. If anyone disagrees pour on some 'Medical isnt just Science, its ART! You can't just use Science!' I say this with my monocle because I am a capitalist and I own a healthcare company. The standard billing practices are awful, the demand exceeds my employee supply, and everyone is so impressed that we own a healthcare clinic. The medical cartels don't have to play by the rules, they are the power. They decide when red tape is cut, what are you going to due? Sue them? Ha look at those odds. Good luck finding a lawyer.
- krapp 3y ago
  [flagged]
- 93po 3y ago
  i'd gladly give all my medical data out to whoever if it could be used for training models. i assume my data is all sold by my pharmacy or credit card provider or whoever else anyway
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  This needs to be more known. The industry is utter garbage and filled with terrible people, or at best people put in a bad position that respond with abuse. I'm not saying none of them could be pretty good, but it's tough.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
I think this issue nicely illustrates a common pitfall/tendency of privacy laws. They protect us from everyone except those who cause grief and harm for a living.
23B1 3y ago
[flagged]
- argiopetech 3y ago
  The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. As Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it." This requires every citizen to know the rules (the 4th amendment, in this case,) and to have the intestinal fortitude to enforce those rules. Unfortunately, even assuming the rules are known (they aren't), "I don't agree with your statement, but I'll fight and die for your right to state it" is a lost sentiment.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    The gaping loophole in the Fourth is precisely what this article is about. It's not about "knowing the rules", it's that this rule doesn't apply here.
    - argiopetech 3y ago
      It's also about closing that loophole and bringing it in line with a "Constitutional privacy amendment" (in the comment to which I originally replied). We have one of those already, what good would another do in this case.?
      - 23B1 3y ago
        Do you believe the 4th amendment is sufficiently protecting your privacy now?
  - 23B1 3y ago
    > This requires every citizen to know the rules (the 4th amendment, in this case,) and to have the intestinal fortitude to enforce those rules. This is a very privileged take!
tristor 3y ago
Sounds like more evidence the police are an officially endorsed criminal gang. That seems like the source of the problem, and not solving that is just a bandaid.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > not solving that is just a bandaid I think the framing is silly, but in the spirit of argument, let’s accept it. What is the solution? (To me, it implies disbanding the police, which is not something most people want for obvious reasons.)
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    There are likely changes to incentives that could be made without disbanding or refunding the police. Today police, DAs, and judges are all incentivized to close as many big cases as possible. We need these people to be motivated to actually protect the public and help those in need. Police funding, promotions, and recognition could be realigned to much better promote a policing system that focus on actually serving the public rather than catching and punishing as many people as possible.
  - tl 3y ago
    I can't believe we're having this discussion either. Force cops to follow rules, full stop. We know that police misconduct begets more misconduct [1], and it works in both directions. When officers start losing their badge or their pension for cutting corners, they'll stop cutting corners. [1]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2378023119879798 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231198797...
    - bloomingeek 3y ago
      Absolutely, cops have to be held to a higher standard. This so called "peace officer" was stopped from trying to draw the blood from the unconscious person! Then he has the gall to arrest the nurse who told him he had no right! Then, instead of taking responsibility for his actions, he blames the system! https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/10/12/ex-salt-lake-city-officer/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/10/12/ex-salt-lake-city-off... https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/08/28/police-officer-who/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/08/28/police-offic... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106/utah-nurse-arrested-for-doing-her-job-reaches-500-000-settlement https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106...
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
When was the last time we had a serious debate about why prescription drugs are gate kept? In most countries, you can buy OTC drugs which in the U.S. require a prescription. Removing that barrier reduces costs and improve privacy.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  Reverse card: Nexium is otc in Usa, prescription only in my part of the big diverse place that is the Eu, so i can't speak for all of it.
  - MandieD 3y ago
    Second reverse card: I can buy a giant bottle of Tylenol (acetaminophen/paracetamol) in any grocery store in the US, right off the shelf, using self-checkout. In Germany, I can only buy it in 10-20 tablet packets at a pharmacy, and only after asking the tech at the register for it, and will be warned not to take more than a certain number in a day. And you’re sure as heck not getting any antibiotic stronger than a first aid cream without a prescription in Germany.
- fallingknife 3y ago
  It's seriously ridiculous. I have had a prescription for Adderall for over 15 years now but I have to pay $175 every 3 months for a new prescription. They last about 2 minutes on the phone. That's $10,000 I've paid for a doctor to do nothing! I also have a prescription for this ointment to treat eczema. Last time I ran out I tried to call my dermatologist for a refill, but apparently he's retired now. So just to get this stupid skin cream I had to make an appointment with another doctor, wait a month, and pay money when I already knew exactly the medication I needed from the pharmacy.
  - corethree 3y ago
    It's criminal. The entire doctors profession is the reason why the US is so expensive. It's cartel based regulations by the AMA. Everything about being a doctor is gate kept. Prescriptions, test results, even becoming a doctor is artificially made harder than it needs to be to keep prices high. One doctor on HN told me why patients could only get test results through another appointment with the doctor. I thought it was because the docs wanted more money. He told me it was because patients can misinterpret results and go suicide. Yeah makes total sense treating patients like simpletons to keep the money funneling in. Suicide?. Give me a break.
hassanjutt373 3y ago
[flagged]
kyledrake 3y ago
Companies can be at legal and financial risk if they flat out refuse to respond to subpoenas and instead demand warrants. Without a law to require warrants for this data, most companies are going to respond to them if they come from law enforcement and/or judges in their country.
- dylan604 3y ago
  What legal and financial risks are there if one demands a warrant?
  - ycombinatrix 3y ago
    ticket, fines, getting beaten up by cops, thrown in jail on bullshit charges. take your pick.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      so, a tuesday then?
timcobb 3y ago
Ron Wyden is my hero. Seems like the only good things coming out of Congress lately have his name on them. I wish I could vote for him.
- brewdad 3y ago
  I'll be sure to vote for him twice on your behalf. ;)
  - timcobb 3y ago
    Spoken like a true Democrat! ;)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ralmidani 3y ago
The second paragraph regarding abortion is terrifying: > The revelation raises grave medical privacy concerns, particularly in a post-Dobbs era in which many states are working to criminalize reproductive health care. Even if people in states with restrictive laws cross state lines for care, pharmacists in massive chains, such as CVS, can access records across borders. I was “pro-life” from as long as I can remember thinking about the issue (I still recall the Bush v. Gore debates) until I voted last month in favor of making free access to abortion a constitutional right in Ohio. It initially took some coaxing from my wife, who helped me try to understand the issue from a woman’s perspective, and for a while I had doubts about whether I had done the right thing, but reading about far-right shenanigans (or potential shenanigans) makes me 100% confident I’m now on the correct side on abortion. Wherever power __can__ be abused, it __will__ be abused. I wish abortion was less common, and we should work on making it less common, but the last thing we need is ideologues and extremist politicians second-guessing healthcare professionals and harassing women in what is one of the most desperate times in their lives. ———————————————————————— Edit: reading some of the strident and confrontational comments from some of those with whom I actually agree on the issue, it’s clear that “the cause”, if you will, doesn’t always have effective advocates. I have a fairly thick skin, some I’m avoiding engaging in a similarly mean-spirited way, but extremists (on both sides) are their own worst enemy. In the same way that I was pushed away from being “pro-life”, in part by far-right extremists, I imagine the extremists on the far-left are also losing friends and alienating people.
- ta988 3y ago
  Thank you for all of us that this issue impacts and should be able to make their own medical choices.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  The problem is thinking there's a correct side. If you believe life begins at conception and that ending a life is murder, then naturally you're going to believe that abortion is murder and is therefore immoral. If you do NOT believe life begins at conception than naturally you're not going to believe it's murder and therefor not going to believe it's immoral. It's possible to disagree with someone's stance on abortion without thinking of it as correct or incorrect. --- edit: why is it people insist on arguing even when the entire point is that arguing about it isn't all that meaningful? The overarching point is to stop acting as if people are definitely right or wrong. stop arguing over semantics of words.
eemil 3y ago
...in the US. Jurisdiction please.
TeeMassive 3y ago
In 2013 the IRS was successfully sued for doing the exact same thing: https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/irs-face-lawsuit-over-theft-60-million-patient-health-records https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/irs-face-lawsuit-over-...
pvg 3y ago
Discussed last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38615841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38615841
swozey 3y ago
I was curious if people were still going into Pharmacy since every drug store I've walked into in the last 5 years looked like an empty thrift store that just had a tornado blow through it. This article was written by a class of 2025 Pharmacy student. https://pharmacy.wsu.edu/2023/04/24/real-talk-on-the-future-of-pharmacy-jobs-and-pay/ https://pharmacy.wsu.edu/2023/04/24/real-talk-on-the-future-... > Applying to pharmacy school I was told the field was saturated, but now there are corporations offering pharmacists signing bonuses and most pharmacies are understaffed. What changed? COVID. The pharmacists that were close to retiring just retired. There were less applications to pharmacy schools nationwide and therefore less people entering the field. Previously it was a requirement to have some kind of first post-graduate year (PGY1) and/or second post-graduate year (PGY2) residency to work in the hospital setting, but now I have seen job openings that have no residency requirement, and they are willing to do specialty training on the job because they need more people to fill roles and a larger applicant pool.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I rarely need prescription medication, but when I do, I go to the pharmacy to get it filled. I don't know of any other way to get the medication. Judging by how long the lines at the pharmacy are, I have lots of company.
  - ttmb 3y ago
    Delivery from online, it's not just for spammers. In fact, every medical insurance provider I've had for years has tried to push me onto their in-house pharmaceutical delivery service. Traditional pharmacies have been getting squeezed for a long time.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Ah, I see. I always forget that such services exist, probably because they are of no interest to me. And since my local pharmacy is always busy, I'm thinking I'm not alone in this.
  - rascul 3y ago
caseysoftware 3y ago
Everyone needs to learn about Third Party Doctrine: > "The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy protection allows the United States government to obtain information from third parties without a legal warrant and without otherwise complying with the Fourth Amendment prohibition against search and seizure without probable cause and a judicial search warrant." Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine edit: If you want to learn the legal reasoning for this, check out "Habeas Data: Privacy vs. the Rise of Surveillance Tech" by Cyrus Farivar. It's a great and horrifying book.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Another fine example of Judaical Activism granting authority to government contrary to the plain reading of the constitution
  - psychlops 3y ago
    But the children!
    - x86x87 3y ago
      think about the 3rd party children!
- somethingsaid 3y ago
  Right, but while medical offices are third parties, they are also something you cannot (literally) live life without. I would argue that makes them extensions of yourself in the sense that they are acting purely on your behalf in an essential capacity. In this way they are like lawyers, who you need to interact effectively like the court system. In that vain, communications with your medical professionals in their capacity as your caretaker should be strongly protected. That logic applies similarly with your computing devices.
dehrmann 3y ago
Suing pharmacies for the opioid crisis just motivates them to hand over records to law enforcement.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Sounds like we should sue them for that too?
- jotux 3y ago
  49 states have prescription drug monitoring programs (PDMP) that automatically send reports to law enforcement. https://store.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/d7/priv/sma16-4997.pdf https://store.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/d7/priv/sma16-4... California's implementation is called CURES: https://oag.ca.gov/cures https://oag.ca.gov/cures
magicmicah85 3y ago
I agree that medical records deserve more privacy but the police are utilizing subpoenas. Most of these companies are complying as the cost to review and challenge each subpoena will add up. It’s not worth eating into their profits and current law allows them to do this. I wouldn’t expect them not to utilize every legal tool at their disposal.
- eli 3y ago
  The legal standard for a subpoena from a federal agency is "reasonably relevant to an authorized investigation." As determined by the agency itself. That's an incredibly low bar. And if pharmacies respond to subpoena without even having a lawyer review them first, there really isn't anything to stop requests that fall below this low standard.
  - ssss11 3y ago
    Yeah that sounds like a free-for-all.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  A subpoena is a court order, and the only way to challenge it would be to go in front of a judge, at which point you could potentially risk criminal contempt charges for not complying in the first place. Hobson's choice :(
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > A subpoena is a court order, and the only way to challenge it would be to go in front of a judge, at which point you could potentially risk criminal contempt charges for not complying in the first place. There may be some special authority subpoenas where things are different, but generally, no, immediately filing a motion to quash instead of complying with a subpoena will not make you subject to any sanctions for not complying up front.
    - qingcharles 3y ago

249 points by feross 3y ago

> According to the lawmakers, CVS, Kroger, and Rite Aid said that "their pharmacy staff face extreme pressure to immediately respond to law enforcement demands and, as such, the companies instruct their staff to process those requests in store." THIS. Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement - who can easily be armed, uniformed, belligerent, and right in their faces - is cruel and delusional.

tomrod 3y ago
Simply because some cops can be brigands doesn't really mean that we shouldn't have expectations of people. Bullies are always going to bully. Roll-over-and-take-it is a terrible corporate strategy!
- swells34 3y ago
  Yeah, I have expectations... of the police. In most large cities, this is a guaranteed six figure income, with basically no education requirements. They are literally given an "above the law" status via qualified immunity. If they intimidate someone into doing something illegal, like giving up patient information, they should be culpable. Do not punish the weakest person in the power struggle, they are nearly always the victim.
fredgrott 3y ago
at the same time those firms put the license people at risk of losing their state license by compiling without that warrant..
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  This is the part that would piss me off as a PharmD. They spend a vast sum of time, money and energy to gain a PharmD, then some asshat company puts them in situations where their licenses could be at risk? Of course they do.
  - bell-cot 3y ago
    Theory: The state licensing boards are aware of the problem, and "neglect" to punish pharmacists who are caught in such situations with law enforcement.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      No, enforcement becomes roulette or leverage over people in these situations. Were I on the board of these companies, I'd be aghast and demand this clear operational issue, which threatens our capacity to provide pharmacy services long term, be remediated.
      - sonicanatidae 3y ago
        I'd just move to an organization that doesn't callously put my license at risk. They sure af aren't going to toss me a lifetime check, when it happens.
    - sonicanatidae 3y ago
      This is not unlikely, but at the same time, to be put in a position where, in order to do your job, you have to rely on the understanding of "the government" is just shitty.
codingdave 3y ago
That part stood out to me as well, but because the article said that a subpoena is still required. And it is unclear to me if those pharmacies are at least asking to see it, or if they are telling their staff to handle any and all requests, no questions asked.
- ClarityJones 3y ago
  I think it's a distinction without a difference. In this context, where this is no pending legal proceeding, a subpoena is just a request with no legal authority. The function of a real subpoena is to punish the recipient for failing to respond (i.e. held in contempt of court), because the request is made on behalf of the court and the court has the authority to compel production. Here, where there's no court case it's not really possible to have a real subpoena. I could equally issue a subpoena in the authority of my own name, and it would have just as much power (none).
sokoloff 3y ago
It seems like a well-drafted company policy posted and pointed to by the local store staff would be the right way to back up their customers and staff. “Here’s the phone number to corporate who is, by this policy, the only ones equipped and permitted to satisfy your request.” This also makes it so you don’t even send a car out anymore, but can handle the request electronically from the station.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Here’s how that would play out: You’re the only store manager out of all of the chain to have this policy. The Sherriff calls the Mayor who sends a “concerned” email to your VP of Sales. You standing up for your team not only gets you fired but now you’re on a list against the police. 2023 United States baby. Land of the free.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >Here’s how that would play out: You’re the only store manager out of all of the chain to have this policy. The parent post specifically says that it wold be company policy, so that wouldn't apply. >> It seems like a well-drafted company policy posted and pointed to by the local store staff would be the right way to back up their customers and staff.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      The same power structure exists irrespective of where you jump into the value chain - The police are a legal gang that goes all the way to the President Instead of the Mayor, the Sheriff will go to some State Rep or congressperson and the same results happen. I've seen similar moves play out in the past in real life
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - serial_dev 3y ago
        Corruption and bending the rules will probably happen even with this system, but it raises the barrier, and if it's inconvenient enough, it will be only done for the most important cases. If every local sheriff can intimidate and bully a local pharmacist to get the information it's very different than if you need a congress person to call in a favor with supposedly one of the few people who have access to the information.
tokai 3y ago
Ofc we should expect them to stand up. They are breaking the law full stop. I would not give out information on my users, and would rather go the station. They can't do anything but trying to frighten you. I expect everyone with access to personal data do the same.
- phatskat 3y ago
  I don’t expect someone in their early 20’s, being paid CVS wages, and dealing with a ton of people all day to necessarily have the best backbone in the face of an armed thug demanding information face to face. Respecting privacy should be a tenant of law enforcement, since that’s like one of our rights or something, but cops and police unions have been operating outside of the law for their entire history in the US. Obligatory ACAB
- swells34 3y ago
  Are not the police conspiring to break the law then, at the very least? If I intimidated you into breaking the law, while armed, would I not also be culpable? The more I think about this, the more it seems the police should be the only ones culpable in that situation...
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Yes. The police cannot be assumed to be good guys, or even law-abiding.
- autoexec 3y ago
  > They can't do anything but trying to frighten you. Police can rob you, rape you, or murder you in the street and even if it's caught on camera they can still face zero meaningful consequences for that. We've certainly seen it happen. They can also arrest you for something like "obstruction" or "contempt of cop" and that's something you'd have to spend time and money on fighting later in the courts. Ongoing retaliation is something else to be concerned about. In any case, the can certainly do a lot besides "trying to frighten you"
- Madmallard 3y ago
rblatz 3y ago
I think it’s expected that pharmacists be held to the same or higher standards than we held video store clerks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Privacy_Protection_Act#:~:text=Congress%20passed%20the%20VPPA%20after,to%20%242500%20in%20actual%20damages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Privacy_Protection_Act....
- nativeit 3y ago
  It’s too bad law enforcement don’t seem to be held to any standards at all, then maybe folks who are not generally equipped to make legal determinations won’t be accountable for erring just because an unscrupulous officer or prosecutor misleads and/or intimidates them.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Pharmacists are more overworked than video store clerks. By a huge margin. They're also not treated well by the major pharmacy chains.
- aetch 3y ago
  Too bad they aren’t paid or treated at a higher standard.
- swells34 3y ago
  Or perhaps the issue is law enforcement criminally intimidating these pharmacists and clerks. Seems they are the only ones that aren't held to any standard.
- creer 3y ago
  Lawyers have to fight to get that to apply for digital video. So it would take a specific law to make that carry through to pharmacies. And for that matter, I doubt the video store law applies to bookstores. (A judge confirmation process ran in trouble because of video rental records - so a law was written ... which addresses only video rental. For maximum inefficiency or something.)
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement This seems trivial to solve. Subpoenas get forwarded to corporate legal and they handle releasing of records. It seems peculiar this isn't SOP now. Perhaps it's because pharmacists/managers cost less (in $ and accountability) than lawyers.
- WilTimSon 3y ago
  This has the expectation that police wouldn't just pressure the clerk to do it themselves. The clerk says they'll forward it to corporate, the policeman tells him not to bother and hints that, you know, he is the one with the power here. How many people would ignore that and still do the bureaucratic procedure? Especially if the cop says it won't get back to legal and they'd be helping out on a case?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    The standard corporate policy would be that pharmacists aren't authorized to release records. To do otherwise would risk their jobs and whatever other action follows an unauthorized release of records. With this policy across chains, judges would be skeptical of a cop who tried to bully a local records release. Even a rogue cop could understand this reality.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    Right, so we want to put brigands in prison regardless whether they are at times authorized to use the coercive force of the state.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    Obviously, clerk shouldn't be able to access such data on a whim at all. Same as random "genius" in Apple Store can't access the customer iCloud data.
ldayley 3y ago
It takes real courage to stand up to a request in those circumstances. A notable example from a few years ago was this nurse [0] who was unlawfully arrested and forcefully dragged away by an officer when she refused to take blood samples from an unconscious patient without a warrant. Imagine how much more difficult it would be to resist this when you're a clerk in a retail store working in public. [0]: https://apnews.com/article/321440980fd54809a5bf8e404cfe4367 https://apnews.com/article/321440980fd54809a5bf8e404cfe4367 (Edited to add context)
- monkaiju 3y ago
  https://app.copdb.org/incidents/2ea95420-2070-4c9d-8e72-f1c68fe11359 https://app.copdb.org/incidents/2ea95420-2070-4c9d-8e72-f1c6...
- VBprogrammer 3y ago
  What makes it worse is that the person they were attempting to get the blood from was actually the innocent victim in a crash which resulted from a police chase. The police had no reason to believe the driver was under the influence.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    In fact even worse, I believe, was that the person being chased was LE-affiliated and was under the influence.
- autoexec 3y ago
  After that happened, laws were passed to make it perfectly legal to get blood from unconscious patients without a warrant (https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/732852170/supreme-court-affirms-police-can-draw-blood-from-unconscious-drivers https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/732852170/supreme-court-affir...) and to help avoid the problem of doctors and nurses interfering with the demands of the police, departments in several states have started training officers to draw blood from suspects themselves right on the side of the road so there's no need to take most people to a hospital. Jeff Payne, the Utah cop who was fired after his violent arrest of that nurse went viral, later got hired by the Weber County Sheriff’s Office to work in the medical unit of the county jail.
croisillon 3y ago
i used to work at a place where we had (potentially) a lot of personal and movement information about the city inhabitants ; the police would regularly call the call-center and ask for information, the proper answer was "sure, send us a warrant by email" (and we would never see any warrant) but not every worker would react properly
aredox 3y ago
Librarians do it.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Librarians are not overworked the way pharmacists are. To give you an idea, in a nearby Walgreens, we have pharmacists snapping at customers saying "We got your prescription only two days ago. It's not going to be ready that quickly!"
  - 93po 3y ago
    so glad i can order most of my meds delivered by mail now, pharmacies are awful for everyone
    - BeetleB 3y ago
      In my experience, going to one of the non-chain pharmacies (the type that don't sell laundry detergents) is always better. Either one tied to a clinic/hospital, or some independent one. With my pharmacy, I can always get it filled within an hour - I notify them before I head out.
      - 93po 3y ago
        My sample size of one agrees with this. Costco has also been decently good
annoyingnoob 3y ago
In the time before ubiquitous cell phones, I was a cashier at a gas station. One day a cop came in and asked to use the phone. I directed him to the pay phone. He told me that the pay phone was in use, not realizing that I could see the p[ay phone from where I was standing. He got belligerent and demanded the phone, he made a personal call to his wife. Later he pulled me over and gave me a bogus ticket for not signaling. Real nice people those police, better give them what they want or else.
- phatskat 3y ago
  > better give them what they want or else A tale as old as the first police union: when the city tried to reign them in, the Portland Police politely threatened to walk off the job and the chief (iirc) casually showed up to negotiations with a dossier on one of the city councilors just laid out on the table next to his gun.
caskstrength 3y ago
> Expecting indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc. to stand up to law enforcement - who can easily be armed, uniformed, belligerent, and right in their faces - is cruel and delusiona Why do "indifferently-paid and often-overworked pharmacist assistants, clerks, etc." even have access to this? In the US any random pharmacy clerk has access to list of all drugs that customers have ever bought from them and also "medical records" (according to the article)? WTF?
- soared 3y ago
  Pharmacists access drug records as a double check against doctors prescriptions. They look for drug interactions, call out side affects, etc. Their role provides important value so it would be difficult to design a system where they can access the info they need but law enforcement can’t request from (without a change to corporate policy/etc)
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    Why can't the doctor verify all of this before prescribing? Seems to be some weird US thing.
    - lupusreal 3y ago
      They're supposed to, but they sometimes make mistakes. Pharmacists are supposed to know about the sort of drugs they're selling so they can catch potentially lethal errors. Doing away with this safety net to.. avoid addressing police overreach directly is a bad idea.
      - caskstrength 3y ago
        > They're supposed to, but they sometimes make mistakes. Pharmacists are supposed to know about the sort of drugs they're selling so they can catch potentially lethal errors. Are there any stats for how many potentially lethal errors they actually catch in practice?
JohnFen 3y ago
Indeed. My wife is an ER charge nurse, and she often complains about the behavior of cops in the emergency room. They have someone on the edge of death and the cops often are in the room yelling at the nurses to get them to do a blood draw and drug screening. Cops need a warrant to get that, and even if they had a warrant in hand, performing the blood draw wouldn't even be considered until the patient is stabilized. But they never have a warrant, and the pressure the cops apply is withering. Most people -- even doctors and nurses -- would eventually cave. Fortunately, as the charge nurse, she's the one who has to approve such a thing, so the cops have to deal with her. And she's hard as a rock. They aren't going to make her wilt.
- swells34 3y ago
  Well, we've spoiled our police force. We've provided them with ridiculous amounts of power, minimal oversight, and very rare and minor consequences. The behavior you describe is that of a spoiled child, used to getting what it wants immediately by throwing an abusive tantrum, consequences to others and rules be damned. Same reason they execute PIT maneuvers on busy roads, lead high speed chases through the middle of towns, and empty full magazines into densely populated areas, all things that police in other countries are trained not to do, trained to be patient and follow instead. They want it now, and anyone hurt along the way is just a casualty of war, not their problem or responsibility.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > The behavior you describe is that of a spoiled child This is exactly how she describes them. "Spoiled brats with guns".
tiahura 3y ago
The goofy kids at Verizon T-Mobile and ATT manage? Why can’t licensed pharmacy techs?
- bell-cot 3y ago
  I'm not familiar with that...but are you comparing anonymous workers in a distant and "this call will be recorded..." call center to front-line workers, who may have an armed & angry "law" enforcement officer right in their face? If so, Apples != Oranges
  - tiahura 3y ago
    No, I mean the kids working at the local corporate store.

hospitalJail 3y ago

Medical in the US holds all the power. They literally control our health and well being. Their cartel decides when they want to cut off drugs and services. If we use the last 120 years of data, the medical cartels has won at every cross roads, and seemingly 5% raises every year(with 2% CPI...). Your entire healtcare records got leaked and now your SSN is on the internet(Beaumont)? OOPSIE but we can't use this data for science because HIPAA. Must keep healthcare data within the cartel for cartel uses only. Imagine if AI had all this data, it could just diagnose for free with offline local models. If anyone disagrees pour on some 'Medical isnt just Science, its ART! You can't just use Science!' I say this with my monocle because I am a capitalist and I own a healthcare company. The standard billing practices are awful, the demand exceeds my employee supply, and everyone is so impressed that we own a healthcare clinic. The medical cartels don't have to play by the rules, they are the power. They decide when red tape is cut, what are you going to due? Sue them? Ha look at those odds. Good luck finding a lawyer.

krapp 3y ago
[flagged]
93po 3y ago
i'd gladly give all my medical data out to whoever if it could be used for training models. i assume my data is all sold by my pharmacy or credit card provider or whoever else anyway
P_I_Staker 3y ago
This needs to be more known. The industry is utter garbage and filled with terrible people, or at best people put in a bad position that respond with abuse. I'm not saying none of them could be pretty good, but it's tough.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

I think this issue nicely illustrates a common pitfall/tendency of privacy laws. They protect us from everyone except those who cause grief and harm for a living.

23B1 3y ago

[flagged]

argiopetech 3y ago
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. As Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it." This requires every citizen to know the rules (the 4th amendment, in this case,) and to have the intestinal fortitude to enforce those rules. Unfortunately, even assuming the rules are known (they aren't), "I don't agree with your statement, but I'll fight and die for your right to state it" is a lost sentiment.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  The gaping loophole in the Fourth is precisely what this article is about. It's not about "knowing the rules", it's that this rule doesn't apply here.
  - argiopetech 3y ago
    It's also about closing that loophole and bringing it in line with a "Constitutional privacy amendment" (in the comment to which I originally replied). We have one of those already, what good would another do in this case.?
    - 23B1 3y ago
      Do you believe the 4th amendment is sufficiently protecting your privacy now?
- 23B1 3y ago
  > This requires every citizen to know the rules (the 4th amendment, in this case,) and to have the intestinal fortitude to enforce those rules. This is a very privileged take!

tristor 3y ago

Sounds like more evidence the police are an officially endorsed criminal gang. That seems like the source of the problem, and not solving that is just a bandaid.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> not solving that is just a bandaid I think the framing is silly, but in the spirit of argument, let’s accept it. What is the solution? (To me, it implies disbanding the police, which is not something most people want for obvious reasons.)
- _heimdall 3y ago
  There are likely changes to incentives that could be made without disbanding or refunding the police. Today police, DAs, and judges are all incentivized to close as many big cases as possible. We need these people to be motivated to actually protect the public and help those in need. Police funding, promotions, and recognition could be realigned to much better promote a policing system that focus on actually serving the public rather than catching and punishing as many people as possible.
- tl 3y ago
  I can't believe we're having this discussion either. Force cops to follow rules, full stop. We know that police misconduct begets more misconduct [1], and it works in both directions. When officers start losing their badge or their pension for cutting corners, they'll stop cutting corners. [1]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2378023119879798 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231198797...
  - bloomingeek 3y ago
    Absolutely, cops have to be held to a higher standard. This so called "peace officer" was stopped from trying to draw the blood from the unconscious person! Then he has the gall to arrest the nurse who told him he had no right! Then, instead of taking responsibility for his actions, he blames the system! https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/10/12/ex-salt-lake-city-officer/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/10/12/ex-salt-lake-city-off... https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/08/28/police-officer-who/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/08/28/police-offic... https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106/utah-nurse-arrested-for-doing-her-job-reaches-500-000-settlement https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/01/561337106...

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

When was the last time we had a serious debate about why prescription drugs are gate kept? In most countries, you can buy OTC drugs which in the U.S. require a prescription. Removing that barrier reduces costs and improve privacy.

InCityDreams 3y ago
Reverse card: Nexium is otc in Usa, prescription only in my part of the big diverse place that is the Eu, so i can't speak for all of it.
- MandieD 3y ago
  Second reverse card: I can buy a giant bottle of Tylenol (acetaminophen/paracetamol) in any grocery store in the US, right off the shelf, using self-checkout. In Germany, I can only buy it in 10-20 tablet packets at a pharmacy, and only after asking the tech at the register for it, and will be warned not to take more than a certain number in a day. And you’re sure as heck not getting any antibiotic stronger than a first aid cream without a prescription in Germany.
fallingknife 3y ago
It's seriously ridiculous. I have had a prescription for Adderall for over 15 years now but I have to pay $175 every 3 months for a new prescription. They last about 2 minutes on the phone. That's $10,000 I've paid for a doctor to do nothing! I also have a prescription for this ointment to treat eczema. Last time I ran out I tried to call my dermatologist for a refill, but apparently he's retired now. So just to get this stupid skin cream I had to make an appointment with another doctor, wait a month, and pay money when I already knew exactly the medication I needed from the pharmacy.
- corethree 3y ago
  It's criminal. The entire doctors profession is the reason why the US is so expensive. It's cartel based regulations by the AMA. Everything about being a doctor is gate kept. Prescriptions, test results, even becoming a doctor is artificially made harder than it needs to be to keep prices high. One doctor on HN told me why patients could only get test results through another appointment with the doctor. I thought it was because the docs wanted more money. He told me it was because patients can misinterpret results and go suicide. Yeah makes total sense treating patients like simpletons to keep the money funneling in. Suicide?. Give me a break.

hassanjutt373 3y ago

[flagged]

kyledrake 3y ago

Companies can be at legal and financial risk if they flat out refuse to respond to subpoenas and instead demand warrants. Without a law to require warrants for this data, most companies are going to respond to them if they come from law enforcement and/or judges in their country.

dylan604 3y ago
What legal and financial risks are there if one demands a warrant?
- ycombinatrix 3y ago
  ticket, fines, getting beaten up by cops, thrown in jail on bullshit charges. take your pick.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    so, a tuesday then?

timcobb 3y ago

Ron Wyden is my hero. Seems like the only good things coming out of Congress lately have his name on them. I wish I could vote for him.

brewdad 3y ago
I'll be sure to vote for him twice on your behalf. ;)
- timcobb 3y ago
  Spoken like a true Democrat! ;)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ralmidani 3y ago

The second paragraph regarding abortion is terrifying: > The revelation raises grave medical privacy concerns, particularly in a post-Dobbs era in which many states are working to criminalize reproductive health care. Even if people in states with restrictive laws cross state lines for care, pharmacists in massive chains, such as CVS, can access records across borders. I was “pro-life” from as long as I can remember thinking about the issue (I still recall the Bush v. Gore debates) until I voted last month in favor of making free access to abortion a constitutional right in Ohio. It initially took some coaxing from my wife, who helped me try to understand the issue from a woman’s perspective, and for a while I had doubts about whether I had done the right thing, but reading about far-right shenanigans (or potential shenanigans) makes me 100% confident I’m now on the correct side on abortion. Wherever power __can__ be abused, it __will__ be abused. I wish abortion was less common, and we should work on making it less common, but the last thing we need is ideologues and extremist politicians second-guessing healthcare professionals and harassing women in what is one of the most desperate times in their lives. ———————————————————————— Edit: reading some of the strident and confrontational comments from some of those with whom I actually agree on the issue, it’s clear that “the cause”, if you will, doesn’t always have effective advocates. I have a fairly thick skin, some I’m avoiding engaging in a similarly mean-spirited way, but extremists (on both sides) are their own worst enemy. In the same way that I was pushed away from being “pro-life”, in part by far-right extremists, I imagine the extremists on the far-left are also losing friends and alienating people.

ta988 3y ago
Thank you for all of us that this issue impacts and should be able to make their own medical choices.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
The problem is thinking there's a correct side. If you believe life begins at conception and that ending a life is murder, then naturally you're going to believe that abortion is murder and is therefore immoral. If you do NOT believe life begins at conception than naturally you're not going to believe it's murder and therefor not going to believe it's immoral. It's possible to disagree with someone's stance on abortion without thinking of it as correct or incorrect. --- edit: why is it people insist on arguing even when the entire point is that arguing about it isn't all that meaningful? The overarching point is to stop acting as if people are definitely right or wrong. stop arguing over semantics of words.

eemil 3y ago

...in the US. Jurisdiction please.

TeeMassive 3y ago

In 2013 the IRS was successfully sued for doing the exact same thing: https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/irs-face-lawsuit-over-theft-60-million-patient-health-records https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/irs-face-lawsuit-over-...

pvg 3y ago

Discussed last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38615841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38615841

swozey 3y ago

I was curious if people were still going into Pharmacy since every drug store I've walked into in the last 5 years looked like an empty thrift store that just had a tornado blow through it. This article was written by a class of 2025 Pharmacy student. https://pharmacy.wsu.edu/2023/04/24/real-talk-on-the-future-of-pharmacy-jobs-and-pay/ https://pharmacy.wsu.edu/2023/04/24/real-talk-on-the-future-... > Applying to pharmacy school I was told the field was saturated, but now there are corporations offering pharmacists signing bonuses and most pharmacies are understaffed. What changed? COVID. The pharmacists that were close to retiring just retired. There were less applications to pharmacy schools nationwide and therefore less people entering the field. Previously it was a requirement to have some kind of first post-graduate year (PGY1) and/or second post-graduate year (PGY2) residency to work in the hospital setting, but now I have seen job openings that have no residency requirement, and they are willing to do specialty training on the job because they need more people to fill roles and a larger applicant pool.

JohnFen 3y ago
I rarely need prescription medication, but when I do, I go to the pharmacy to get it filled. I don't know of any other way to get the medication. Judging by how long the lines at the pharmacy are, I have lots of company.
- ttmb 3y ago
  Delivery from online, it's not just for spammers. In fact, every medical insurance provider I've had for years has tried to push me onto their in-house pharmaceutical delivery service. Traditional pharmacies have been getting squeezed for a long time.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Ah, I see. I always forget that such services exist, probably because they are of no interest to me. And since my local pharmacy is always busy, I'm thinking I'm not alone in this.
- rascul 3y ago

caseysoftware 3y ago

Everyone needs to learn about Third Party Doctrine: > "The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy protection allows the United States government to obtain information from third parties without a legal warrant and without otherwise complying with the Fourth Amendment prohibition against search and seizure without probable cause and a judicial search warrant." Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine edit: If you want to learn the legal reasoning for this, check out "Habeas Data: Privacy vs. the Rise of Surveillance Tech" by Cyrus Farivar. It's a great and horrifying book.

phpisthebest 3y ago
Another fine example of Judaical Activism granting authority to government contrary to the plain reading of the constitution
- psychlops 3y ago
  But the children!
  - x86x87 3y ago
    think about the 3rd party children!
somethingsaid 3y ago
Right, but while medical offices are third parties, they are also something you cannot (literally) live life without. I would argue that makes them extensions of yourself in the sense that they are acting purely on your behalf in an essential capacity. In this way they are like lawyers, who you need to interact effectively like the court system. In that vain, communications with your medical professionals in their capacity as your caretaker should be strongly protected. That logic applies similarly with your computing devices.

dehrmann 3y ago

Suing pharmacies for the opioid crisis just motivates them to hand over records to law enforcement.

omginternets 3y ago
Sounds like we should sue them for that too?
jotux 3y ago
49 states have prescription drug monitoring programs (PDMP) that automatically send reports to law enforcement. https://store.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/d7/priv/sma16-4997.pdf https://store.samhsa.gov/sites/default/files/d7/priv/sma16-4... California's implementation is called CURES: https://oag.ca.gov/cures https://oag.ca.gov/cures

magicmicah85 3y ago

I agree that medical records deserve more privacy but the police are utilizing subpoenas. Most of these companies are complying as the cost to review and challenge each subpoena will add up. It’s not worth eating into their profits and current law allows them to do this. I wouldn’t expect them not to utilize every legal tool at their disposal.

eli 3y ago
The legal standard for a subpoena from a federal agency is "reasonably relevant to an authorized investigation." As determined by the agency itself. That's an incredibly low bar. And if pharmacies respond to subpoena without even having a lawyer review them first, there really isn't anything to stop requests that fall below this low standard.
- ssss11 3y ago
  Yeah that sounds like a free-for-all.
qingcharles 3y ago
A subpoena is a court order, and the only way to challenge it would be to go in front of a judge, at which point you could potentially risk criminal contempt charges for not complying in the first place. Hobson's choice :(
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > A subpoena is a court order, and the only way to challenge it would be to go in front of a judge, at which point you could potentially risk criminal contempt charges for not complying in the first place. There may be some special authority subpoenas where things are different, but generally, no, immediately filing a motion to quash instead of complying with a subpoena will not make you subject to any sanctions for not complying up front.
  - qingcharles 3y ago