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> “We make the best cars,” he [Musk] said of Tesla at a New York Times event last month. “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best

> “We make the best cars,” he [Musk] said of Tesla at a New York Times event last month. “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?” Ah, lol. You could’ve argued that Tesla was the best EV some years ago (not any car, mind you, just EV). But now? Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Most are still years behind Tesla on the range or software quality part. Ask any Volkswagen owner, their software has gone to shit. On top of that they're rare in numbers. Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, and it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs.
- jgilias 3y ago
  I don’t want software from my car manufacturer. I want a thing I can cast Apple CarPlay on. Regarding range, pretty much any EV with a comparable battery pack (kWh-wise) is a peer. And there’s plenty of those now.
  - wddkcs 3y ago
    You don't want software, you just want a thing that relies on software. Got it
    - mort96 3y ago
      They don't want software they have to interact with through the car's UI. Everything relies on software these days, I'm sure they want their brakes to keep working too which requires software, but I think what they tried to communicate came through pretty clearly.
      - ilikehurdles 3y ago
        This has gotten so far from the point of the original comment, which is that the software of VW and others is often worse. You’re not getting many buttons and nobs in those either, and the few you do don’t work all that well as they’re fake (capacitive) buttons now. You’ll be relying on the software UI for the bulk of the creature comforts of the car - not just stuff that can be replaced by CarPlay.
      - wddkcs 3y ago
        You said it yourself- even braking requires software these days, so the statement 'i dont want software from my car manufacturer' clearly makes no sense. Maybe you could say 'you don't want UI software from your car manufacturer' but that's obviously wrong for the market as well- what about users who don't have an apple, or who prefer not to use their phone at all? Cars are moving towards more tech integration, not less, so the entire idea of auto manufacturers not needing to focus on software makes no sense. Zooming back out to the larger point, Tesla is clearly leading the software battle, and that's a battle that matters for consumers.
        piva00 3y ago
        That's an argument over semantics, having to preface any usage of "software" with a disclaimer about an exact meaning of it is not only cumbersome but pretty damn boring for any online discussion. I don't think the original comment was made in a way that this nitpicking adds anything to the discussion. Cars have software for 30-40+ years if we interpret the way you are interpreting so it makes sense to ignore that meaning and actually reply to what was meant by the comment... It's just very tiresome to have these semantics bickering when it's pretty obvious what was meant.
        wddkcs 3y ago
        No less tiresome than your dismissal of my argument as semantics. I read the OP as asking to turn the center console into a dumb screen for use with a secondary device, or at least the allowance of any native casting software. That is obviously an absurd idea. Until Apple puts out a car, why would a car maker cede the center console to an indeterminate second platform? Do consumers want Apple play, or Android auto? No, they want the best possible navigation experience, and car manufacturers are not going to rely on third party platforms to deliver an increasing share of that experience (with music, navigation, games, movies) on that center screen. Forgetting even the customer benefit, automakers aren't going to pass on the monetization opportunities the console represents. [1] My point might be overly deterministic, but it's not semantics. I'm saying software has already eaten the world, and if we're going to be making outrageous wishes, we should be wishing for the car companies to implement better UI software, not wash their hands of it. At least the former is achievable. Arguably, the latter isn't even desirable. [1] https://www.hotcars.com/why-tesla-doesnt-include-apple-carplay-android-auto/#:~:text=Despite%20customer%20demands%2C%20Tesla%20does,disrupt%20the%20seamless%20Tesla%20experience https://www.hotcars.com/why-tesla-doesnt-include-apple-carpl....
  - stingraycharles 3y ago
    Exactly. Tesla’s overuse of software for everything is a bug, not a feature. I want knobs and dials and something to cast CarPlay on, and that’s it.
- surfingdino 3y ago
  Volkswagen and other ICE car manufacturers are not IT companies like Tesla. They are holdings outsourcing design and manufacturing to Bosch, Magna Steyr, and others.
  - acatton 3y ago
    Yes, but they are doing another layer of quality control on whatever comes out of Bosch. Because at the end of the day, they can't blame Bosch for the bad quality of cars sold under their brand.
    - jedrek 3y ago
      I'd much rather have a door hinge[1] from Bosch, a company that has manufactured a billion door hinges[1], than from a company that's figuring out how to design and manufacture door hinges right now. [1] these are hypothetical examples meant to illustrated a mechanism.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > Most are still years behind Tesla on the range FTA: "In July, the news agency revealed how Tesla had created a secret team to suppress thousands of customer complaints about poor driving range. The report, which found that Tesla rigged an algorithm to inflate its cars’ in-dash range estimates, sparked a federal investigation."
  - cuu508 3y ago
    They are ahead in software side of things, so ... they fixed it in software :-)
    - acatton 3y ago
      Exactly, it worked for the Boeing 737 Max... for a while...
  - bonton89 3y ago
    The end game for surveillance capitalism. Recording everything you do, storing it out of your control and then falsifying the data to screw other people over. They'll probably only get a small fine for it so all they'll learn is to hide it a little bit better next time. You think this information will be used to make things better for you the consumer? This is war, and you're the enemy.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  > it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs Well you said it yourself, it's the margins. I guess we can blame people then for paying those margins, buying those huge, gas-guzzling SUVs. Meanwhile Tesla releases a huge (albeit not gas-guzzling in the traditional sense of course) pickup truck. (Whether it's high margin I have no idea.)
- 878654Tom 3y ago
  > Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, BMW Group produced 2,399,632 vehicles in 2022 (a decrease of 4,5% from 2021) with 2,100,689 being BMW's themselves. Tesla produced 1,369,611 vehicles in 2022. Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Some quarters are clearly different than others.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW. From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter [1], that's about 260k a year. Tesla meanwhile makes over 400k cars a quarter [2]. [1] https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0412878EN/high-pace:-electric-vehicle-sales-bmw-brand-more-than-double-again-in-q1?language=en https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T041287... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/715421/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-production/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/715421/tesla-quarterly-v...
    - Kbelicius 3y ago
      > From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter No, you did not get it from BMW themselves. What you did get from them is that they produce 65k EVs, not cars in general. They produce twice as many cars as Tesla.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  > Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year bmw sold >2million cars in 2022, compared to tesla's 4.2million since 2008.
fbergen 3y ago
If they were only building them in volume
- xattt 3y ago
  99 times out of 100, GFL getting an electric car from a dealer without a Eastern Bloc-like wait time. My family waited for 2 years on a Lada in the 1980s.
  - jedrek 3y ago
    A lot of modern western capitalism mirrors whatever the hell we had in the eastern bloc, with the caveat that neither the US nor the EU are 20-40 years after the greatest, most destructive war in their history.
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    Hyundai tells me there are dozens of Ioniqs available within 25 miles of me at a couple different dealers, and my local VW dealer appears to have several ID4s in stock.
    - xattt 3y ago
      My local dealer (only one within 150 km drivable radius) has 14 ID.4s in stock, but the inventory site says sold out for 2023.
- brightball 3y ago
  That's definitely a huge factor. The prices for vehicles from the other makes are absolutely insane for anything comparable. I really, really like the design of the F-150 Lightning. If I could get it with 300 miles of range, rapidly recharge it on a trip and get it used for somewhere in the $40-60k range I'd probably get one. As it stands, it's closer to 200 miles of range for $80-90k without the ability to rapid recharge (that I have seen). Potential is there, but efficiency of production is not. Especially when they're publicly saying they still lose thousands on each one sold.
jnsaff2 3y ago
Sales numbers seem to tell otherwise. Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. That said, it’s not perfect as a car. Also, what a ridiculous answer to criticism about quality from Elon. Just nuts. Tesla makes good cars but to hide problems like a six year old in the hopes that no one notices is just so dumb. It’s not whether you make mistakes but how you handle them when you discover them.
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  Sales are not always indicative of "best". Rather, it indicates popularity. Teslas are nice in some ways and were revolutionary, but build quality and consistency have always been crap and it would seem there are some major issues with all the self driving software.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. It removes individual bias from the equation as individually naming the best is impossible. Not disagreeing with the rest. I have not had notable build quality issues but I recognize that it is an issue generally. The self driving part is a shameful disaster which I’ve stayed as far as possible. Didn’t pay for it and even the parts that come as standard are sometimes scary. Tho not as scary as some other implementations that don’t recognize cars stopped at red light in front of you and are happy to plough into them at full speed (looking at you Volvo).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Sales-wise, McDonalds has the most popular burger, but it's hard to argue it's the best you can buy.
    - johnisgood 3y ago
      Not quite though, as many things influence sale. Availability is one of them. Someone already brought up McDonalds burgers as an example.
Archelaos 3y ago
Since "best" can mean many things, it is good to refer to more objective benchmarks. On possibility are the defect rates of vehicle types in the same age categories. In Germany, cars must undergo regular official inspections. For new cars it is after three years, then every two years. The largest service company that carries out such inspections is TÜV. Their data from July 2022 to June 2023 for the first mandatory inspection after three years shows that Tesla's Model 3 has a defect rate of 14.7%, ranking it last out of 111 models. (The best was VW Golf Sportsvan having a defect rate of 2,0%.)[1] However, these figures are subject to two caveats: - TÜV inspections only cover aspects relating to road safety. - If a vehicle had a defect before the inspection that was discovered and repaired, this would not appear in the figures. Owners of older vehicles in particular often have them checked by a repair shop before the TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection. [1] Source: https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maengelzwerge-und-fehlerriesen https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maeng... (in German)
- pinkgolem 3y ago
  >TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection. Thats not fully correct, a second check is much cheaper then the first one, and it's not super unusual to get it checked by tüv to see what you really need to repair.
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  in terms of reliability its not great in the UK either: https://www.whatcar.com/news/reliability-survey-most-reliable-electric-cars/n26158 https://www.whatcar.com/news/reliability-survey-most-reliabl... For which magazine, tesla was such a drag on defects that it brought down the entire EV category
- caycep 3y ago
  Wait, VW was the best?! who knew?!
luma 3y ago
> “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?” Musk has become so publicly toxic that he now needs to add this disclaimer when trying to pitch his company's product. Dude is becoming a detriment to investors in all the same ways he was a benefit 10 years ago.
epolanski 3y ago
Man's becoming more and more of a villain every week. He's always had too much of an ego, but since Covid he genuinely keeps getting visibly more dangerous as time progresses.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  You’re just getting to know him better
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    Could be both! Though I definitely think that his Twitter addiction has been a net-negative for his image. It's interesting to watch someone with so much money and ambition become a social media addict like the rest of us.
rsynnott 3y ago
I mean, Donald Trump claimed that his steaks were the best, and, well, come on. Loud bombastic idiots claiming their thing is the best thing is just background noise; it is a big part of their _thing_, and shouldn’t be taken at all seriously.
- draw_down 3y ago
  [dead]

mschuster91 3y ago

> Since automakers who actually know how to make reliable cars have caught up on the EV part, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Most are still years behind Tesla on the range or software quality part. Ask any Volkswagen owner, their software has gone to shit. On top of that they're rare in numbers. Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, and it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs.

jgilias 3y ago
I don’t want software from my car manufacturer. I want a thing I can cast Apple CarPlay on. Regarding range, pretty much any EV with a comparable battery pack (kWh-wise) is a peer. And there’s plenty of those now.
- wddkcs 3y ago
  You don't want software, you just want a thing that relies on software. Got it
  - mort96 3y ago
    They don't want software they have to interact with through the car's UI. Everything relies on software these days, I'm sure they want their brakes to keep working too which requires software, but I think what they tried to communicate came through pretty clearly.
    - ilikehurdles 3y ago
      This has gotten so far from the point of the original comment, which is that the software of VW and others is often worse. You’re not getting many buttons and nobs in those either, and the few you do don’t work all that well as they’re fake (capacitive) buttons now. You’ll be relying on the software UI for the bulk of the creature comforts of the car - not just stuff that can be replaced by CarPlay.
    - wddkcs 3y ago
      You said it yourself- even braking requires software these days, so the statement 'i dont want software from my car manufacturer' clearly makes no sense. Maybe you could say 'you don't want UI software from your car manufacturer' but that's obviously wrong for the market as well- what about users who don't have an apple, or who prefer not to use their phone at all? Cars are moving towards more tech integration, not less, so the entire idea of auto manufacturers not needing to focus on software makes no sense. Zooming back out to the larger point, Tesla is clearly leading the software battle, and that's a battle that matters for consumers.
      - piva00 3y ago
        That's an argument over semantics, having to preface any usage of "software" with a disclaimer about an exact meaning of it is not only cumbersome but pretty damn boring for any online discussion. I don't think the original comment was made in a way that this nitpicking adds anything to the discussion. Cars have software for 30-40+ years if we interpret the way you are interpreting so it makes sense to ignore that meaning and actually reply to what was meant by the comment... It's just very tiresome to have these semantics bickering when it's pretty obvious what was meant.
        wddkcs 3y ago
        No less tiresome than your dismissal of my argument as semantics. I read the OP as asking to turn the center console into a dumb screen for use with a secondary device, or at least the allowance of any native casting software. That is obviously an absurd idea. Until Apple puts out a car, why would a car maker cede the center console to an indeterminate second platform? Do consumers want Apple play, or Android auto? No, they want the best possible navigation experience, and car manufacturers are not going to rely on third party platforms to deliver an increasing share of that experience (with music, navigation, games, movies) on that center screen. Forgetting even the customer benefit, automakers aren't going to pass on the monetization opportunities the console represents. [1] My point might be overly deterministic, but it's not semantics. I'm saying software has already eaten the world, and if we're going to be making outrageous wishes, we should be wishing for the car companies to implement better UI software, not wash their hands of it. At least the former is achievable. Arguably, the latter isn't even desirable. [1] https://www.hotcars.com/why-tesla-doesnt-include-apple-carplay-android-auto/#:~:text=Despite%20customer%20demands%2C%20Tesla%20does,disrupt%20the%20seamless%20Tesla%20experience https://www.hotcars.com/why-tesla-doesnt-include-apple-carpl....
- stingraycharles 3y ago
  Exactly. Tesla’s overuse of software for everything is a bug, not a feature. I want knobs and dials and something to cast CarPlay on, and that’s it.
surfingdino 3y ago
Volkswagen and other ICE car manufacturers are not IT companies like Tesla. They are holdings outsourcing design and manufacturing to Bosch, Magna Steyr, and others.
- acatton 3y ago
  Yes, but they are doing another layer of quality control on whatever comes out of Bosch. Because at the end of the day, they can't blame Bosch for the bad quality of cars sold under their brand.
  - jedrek 3y ago
    I'd much rather have a door hinge[1] from Bosch, a company that has manufactured a billion door hinges[1], than from a company that's figuring out how to design and manufacture door hinges right now. [1] these are hypothetical examples meant to illustrated a mechanism.
kibwen 3y ago
> Most are still years behind Tesla on the range FTA: "In July, the news agency revealed how Tesla had created a secret team to suppress thousands of customer complaints about poor driving range. The report, which found that Tesla rigged an algorithm to inflate its cars’ in-dash range estimates, sparked a federal investigation."
- cuu508 3y ago
  They are ahead in software side of things, so ... they fixed it in software :-)
  - acatton 3y ago
    Exactly, it worked for the Boeing 737 Max... for a while...
- bonton89 3y ago
  The end game for surveillance capitalism. Recording everything you do, storing it out of your control and then falsifying the data to screw other people over. They'll probably only get a small fine for it so all they'll learn is to hide it a little bit better next time. You think this information will be used to make things better for you the consumer? This is war, and you're the enemy.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
> it's obvious that the focus of the "classic" ICE car industry still lies on huge, gas guzzling, high-margin SUVs Well you said it yourself, it's the margins. I guess we can blame people then for paying those margins, buying those huge, gas-guzzling SUVs. Meanwhile Tesla releases a huge (albeit not gas-guzzling in the traditional sense of course) pickup truck. (Whether it's high margin I have no idea.)
878654Tom 3y ago
> Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year, BMW Group produced 2,399,632 vehicles in 2022 (a decrease of 4,5% from 2021) with 2,100,689 being BMW's themselves. Tesla produced 1,369,611 vehicles in 2022. Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Some quarters are clearly different than others.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Not even sure where you heard that Tesla produced more cars than BMW. From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter [1], that's about 260k a year. Tesla meanwhile makes over 400k cars a quarter [2]. [1] https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0412878EN/high-pace:-electric-vehicle-sales-bmw-brand-more-than-double-again-in-q1?language=en https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T041287... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/715421/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-production/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/715421/tesla-quarterly-v...
  - Kbelicius 3y ago
    > From BMW themselves. Barely 65k cars a quarter No, you did not get it from BMW themselves. What you did get from them is that they produce 65k EVs, not cars in general. They produce twice as many cars as Tesla.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
KaiserPro 3y ago
> Tesla makes more cars in a quarter than BMW in a year bmw sold >2million cars in 2022, compared to tesla's 4.2million since 2008.

fbergen 3y ago

If they were only building them in volume

xattt 3y ago
99 times out of 100, GFL getting an electric car from a dealer without a Eastern Bloc-like wait time. My family waited for 2 years on a Lada in the 1980s.
- jedrek 3y ago
  A lot of modern western capitalism mirrors whatever the hell we had in the eastern bloc, with the caveat that neither the US nor the EU are 20-40 years after the greatest, most destructive war in their history.
- bigbillheck 3y ago
  Hyundai tells me there are dozens of Ioniqs available within 25 miles of me at a couple different dealers, and my local VW dealer appears to have several ID4s in stock.
  - xattt 3y ago
    My local dealer (only one within 150 km drivable radius) has 14 ID.4s in stock, but the inventory site says sold out for 2023.
brightball 3y ago
That's definitely a huge factor. The prices for vehicles from the other makes are absolutely insane for anything comparable. I really, really like the design of the F-150 Lightning. If I could get it with 300 miles of range, rapidly recharge it on a trip and get it used for somewhere in the $40-60k range I'd probably get one. As it stands, it's closer to 200 miles of range for $80-90k without the ability to rapid recharge (that I have seen). Potential is there, but efficiency of production is not. Especially when they're publicly saying they still lose thousands on each one sold.

jnsaff2 3y ago

Sales numbers seem to tell otherwise. Tesla is the best car. I own one and agree. That said, it’s not perfect as a car. Also, what a ridiculous answer to criticism about quality from Elon. Just nuts. Tesla makes good cars but to hide problems like a six year old in the hopes that no one notices is just so dumb. It’s not whether you make mistakes but how you handle them when you discover them.

7thaccount 3y ago
Sales are not always indicative of "best". Rather, it indicates popularity. Teslas are nice in some ways and were revolutionary, but build quality and consistency have always been crap and it would seem there are some major issues with all the self driving software.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  I would argue that sales is indicative of the best as it best matches the desires, utility and constraints for the most people. It removes individual bias from the equation as individually naming the best is impossible. Not disagreeing with the rest. I have not had notable build quality issues but I recognize that it is an issue generally. The self driving part is a shameful disaster which I’ve stayed as far as possible. Didn’t pay for it and even the parts that come as standard are sometimes scary. Tho not as scary as some other implementations that don’t recognize cars stopped at red light in front of you and are happy to plough into them at full speed (looking at you Volvo).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Sales-wise, McDonalds has the most popular burger, but it's hard to argue it's the best you can buy.
  - johnisgood 3y ago
    Not quite though, as many things influence sale. Availability is one of them. Someone already brought up McDonalds burgers as an example.

Archelaos 3y ago

Since "best" can mean many things, it is good to refer to more objective benchmarks. On possibility are the defect rates of vehicle types in the same age categories. In Germany, cars must undergo regular official inspections. For new cars it is after three years, then every two years. The largest service company that carries out such inspections is TÜV. Their data from July 2022 to June 2023 for the first mandatory inspection after three years shows that Tesla's Model 3 has a defect rate of 14.7%, ranking it last out of 111 models. (The best was VW Golf Sportsvan having a defect rate of 2,0%.)[1] However, these figures are subject to two caveats: - TÜV inspections only cover aspects relating to road safety. - If a vehicle had a defect before the inspection that was discovered and repaired, this would not appear in the figures. Owners of older vehicles in particular often have them checked by a repair shop before the TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection. [1] Source: https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maengelzwerge-und-fehlerriesen https://www.tuvsud.com/de-de/publikationen/tuev-report/maeng... (in German)

pinkgolem 3y ago
>TÜV inspection because they do not want to risk having to repeat the (chargeable) TÜV inspection. Thats not fully correct, a second check is much cheaper then the first one, and it's not super unusual to get it checked by tüv to see what you really need to repair.
KaiserPro 3y ago
in terms of reliability its not great in the UK either: https://www.whatcar.com/news/reliability-survey-most-reliable-electric-cars/n26158 https://www.whatcar.com/news/reliability-survey-most-reliabl... For which magazine, tesla was such a drag on defects that it brought down the entire EV category
caycep 3y ago
Wait, VW was the best?! who knew?!

luma 3y ago

> “Whether you hate me, like me or are indifferent, do you want the best car, or do you not want the best car?” Musk has become so publicly toxic that he now needs to add this disclaimer when trying to pitch his company's product. Dude is becoming a detriment to investors in all the same ways he was a benefit 10 years ago.

epolanski 3y ago

Man's becoming more and more of a villain every week. He's always had too much of an ego, but since Covid he genuinely keeps getting visibly more dangerous as time progresses.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
You’re just getting to know him better
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  Could be both! Though I definitely think that his Twitter addiction has been a net-negative for his image. It's interesting to watch someone with so much money and ambition become a social media addict like the rest of us.

rsynnott 3y ago

I mean, Donald Trump claimed that his steaks were the best, and, well, come on. Loud bombastic idiots claiming their thing is the best thing is just background noise; it is a big part of their _thing_, and shouldn’t be taken at all seriously.

draw_down 3y ago
[dead]