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> In China, you can buy a Nio car without a battery. You subscribe to BaaS (Battery as a Service) and pay a monthly subscription fee. The battery stays on Nio’s

by rapsey 3y ago

> In China, you can buy a Nio car without a battery. You subscribe to BaaS (Battery as a Service) and pay a monthly subscription fee. The battery stays on Nio’s balance sheet. In this case, you can upgrade the battery on demand. If you subscribe to a 75 kWh battery, you can upgrade to a 100 kWh battery for 50 yuan (7 USD) a day or 880 yuan (123 USD) a month. This would make 150 kWh an excellent option for a short upgrade when going on a long trip rather than being “a daily driver.” That is a very interesting model.

Scoundreller 3y ago
France had Renaults where you'd buy the car but lease the battery. No hot-swapping though. Seems like all the disadvantages of ownership with all the disadvantages of leasing. https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/all-you-need-to-know-about-battery-leasing-for-the-renault-zoe/ https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/all-you-nee...
- clouddrover 3y ago
  Nio's swapping works better. You can complete a swap in 6 minutes. And you can upgrade and downgrade the battery between the 75, 100, and the eventual 150 kWh options to suit what you need: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0
  - mycall 3y ago
    If only hot swap batteries existed for buses as it would solve a huge problem with range and charging fleets at yards.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  I _think_ the theory there was that it spread the cost; you’d buy the car for similar to a petrol car, and then pay X euro a month where X was probably similar to what you’d have otherwise been spending on petrol. Don’t think it was ever a particularly popular option.
- thecompilr 3y ago
  There was an Israeli company that used electric Renaults and provided the battery swapping service. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
buro9 3y ago
Tom Scott covered it https://youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
- IanCal 3y ago
  A couple of interesting takeaways from that * They can charge at a slower rate, because they can average it out over the day * They offer frequency balancing to the grid
- Klaster_1 3y ago
  Here's a detailed analysis from The Limiting Factor I found very thorough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxtS7mjrTvo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxtS7mjrTvo
  - buro9 3y ago
    As an aside, this is the first video where I can't tell if it's a human speaking or an AI generated voice. The phenomenon of AI voices _and_ American voices choosing to be in a "presentation mode" / "telephone voice" is disconcerting, it weirdly means I trust US voices less. I recall hearing that Irish voices are the most trusted in Western countries, and now I wonder whether that's something to do with the high degree of authenticity in the voice. Edit: I tried to find a source for the Irish voice thing, but it turns out that every country lists a different accent as most trusted, in India it was British, in the UK it's Northern Irish, YMMV so it is probably irrelevant which voice is most trusted. The gist that the US voice being so present in voice assistants, devices, AI voice bots, etc still directionally may indicate a lessening in trust in those accents where it's not obviously tied to a speaker on screen being obviously human. Edit 2: Now I think future demand for video conferencing for support will increase, as people will not trust voice calls at all.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Trust for what though? I'm not going to trust a british accent for a food recipe but I might trust them for advice on hiding money. > The phenomenon of AI voices _and_ American voices choosing to be in a "presentation mode" / "telephone voice" is disconcerting I wonder how much of this is choice, or availability of crisp training data
wkat4242 3y ago
I don't think it's very interesting unless you use it a lot. I generally abhor "as a service" for physical goods though. When electrical cars first appeared on the market here in Europe leasing the battery was usually the only option. Luckily not anymore. The hotswapping adds an interesting component to it though, that's true.
- rapsey 3y ago
  EV's have a problem with the battery being by far the most expensive part, the quickest depreciating part of the car and a huge issue for when you are trying to sell your car. Buying the car and paying a reasonable monthly subscription to always have an available swappable battery is not bad at all.
  - gorbypark 3y ago
    At the end of the day though, it seems like you would be paying for the depreciation on the battery (because it does depreciate, even if you don't own it) plus the extra profit / overhead required for the "battery as a service" part of the equation. There of course could be economies of scale at work here, where the overall price could be similar/lower than owing and eventually replacing a battery, but it seems to me from my very basic understanding of economics that it would be on average more expensive over the long term.
    - rapsey 3y ago
      You can swap the batteries at any time (at their stations) and it takes minutes. The depreciation is not a factor which is why it is an interesting model.
      - ViewTrick1002 3y ago
        The depreciation is of course included in the leasing cost.
        3y ago

by rapsey 3y ago

Scoundreller 3y ago

France had Renaults where you'd buy the car but lease the battery. No hot-swapping though. Seems like all the disadvantages of ownership with all the disadvantages of leasing. https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/all-you-need-to-know-about-battery-leasing-for-the-renault-zoe/ https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/all-you-nee...

clouddrover 3y ago
Nio's swapping works better. You can complete a swap in 6 minutes. And you can upgrade and downgrade the battery between the 75, 100, and the eventual 150 kWh options to suit what you need: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0
- mycall 3y ago
  If only hot swap batteries existed for buses as it would solve a huge problem with range and charging fleets at yards.
rsynnott 3y ago
I _think_ the theory there was that it spread the cost; you’d buy the car for similar to a petrol car, and then pay X euro a month where X was probably similar to what you’d have otherwise been spending on petrol. Don’t think it was ever a particularly popular option.
thecompilr 3y ago
There was an Israeli company that used electric Renaults and provided the battery swapping service. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

buro9 3y ago

Tom Scott covered it https://youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w

IanCal 3y ago
A couple of interesting takeaways from that * They can charge at a slower rate, because they can average it out over the day * They offer frequency balancing to the grid
Klaster_1 3y ago
Here's a detailed analysis from The Limiting Factor I found very thorough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxtS7mjrTvo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxtS7mjrTvo
- buro9 3y ago
  As an aside, this is the first video where I can't tell if it's a human speaking or an AI generated voice. The phenomenon of AI voices _and_ American voices choosing to be in a "presentation mode" / "telephone voice" is disconcerting, it weirdly means I trust US voices less. I recall hearing that Irish voices are the most trusted in Western countries, and now I wonder whether that's something to do with the high degree of authenticity in the voice. Edit: I tried to find a source for the Irish voice thing, but it turns out that every country lists a different accent as most trusted, in India it was British, in the UK it's Northern Irish, YMMV so it is probably irrelevant which voice is most trusted. The gist that the US voice being so present in voice assistants, devices, AI voice bots, etc still directionally may indicate a lessening in trust in those accents where it's not obviously tied to a speaker on screen being obviously human. Edit 2: Now I think future demand for video conferencing for support will increase, as people will not trust voice calls at all.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Trust for what though? I'm not going to trust a british accent for a food recipe but I might trust them for advice on hiding money. > The phenomenon of AI voices _and_ American voices choosing to be in a "presentation mode" / "telephone voice" is disconcerting I wonder how much of this is choice, or availability of crisp training data

wkat4242 3y ago

I don't think it's very interesting unless you use it a lot. I generally abhor "as a service" for physical goods though. When electrical cars first appeared on the market here in Europe leasing the battery was usually the only option. Luckily not anymore. The hotswapping adds an interesting component to it though, that's true.

rapsey 3y ago
EV's have a problem with the battery being by far the most expensive part, the quickest depreciating part of the car and a huge issue for when you are trying to sell your car. Buying the car and paying a reasonable monthly subscription to always have an available swappable battery is not bad at all.
- gorbypark 3y ago
  At the end of the day though, it seems like you would be paying for the depreciation on the battery (because it does depreciate, even if you don't own it) plus the extra profit / overhead required for the "battery as a service" part of the equation. There of course could be economies of scale at work here, where the overall price could be similar/lower than owing and eventually replacing a battery, but it seems to me from my very basic understanding of economics that it would be on average more expensive over the long term.
  - rapsey 3y ago
    You can swap the batteries at any time (at their stations) and it takes minutes. The depreciation is not a factor which is why it is an interesting model.
    - ViewTrick1002 3y ago
      The depreciation is of course included in the leasing cost.
      - 3y ago