5 ms·

> One vendor specific API, not "various OS' native APIs". Incorrect. Firefox uses Windows Media Foundation, which is cross-vendor, on Windows. It uses MediaCod

> One vendor specific API, not "various OS' native APIs". Incorrect. Firefox uses Windows Media Foundation, which is cross-vendor, on Windows. It uses MediaCodec on Android which is again cross-vendor. Presumably it uses whatever iOS' equivalent is as well. It only uses VA-API on a single OS, Linux, and that's probably more a reflection on the media qualities (or lack thereof) of Linux as a whole. Maybe Vulkan video extensions will be the savior on Linux. Or maybe it won't because it won't be anyone's focus of investment since it's largely a Linux-only problem in the first place.

Dalewyn 3y ago
I'm always annoyed how any Linux media player or encoder needs to bring its own entire media operating system, down to each individual nut and bolt. On Windows there's Windows Media Foundation and DirectShow that centrally manage everything and also support the "individual nut and bolt" approach. Android has its own central thing (MediaCodec?) that must be used. MacOS and iOS presumably have their own central manager (Quicktime?) too. But Linux? It doesn't serve as an operating system for media. It's tremendously inconvenient as an admin/user rather than an evangelist.
- shmerl 3y ago
  You don't need to implement every nut and bolt in the application. Lot's of useful things can do the heavy lifting (Pipewire, ffmpeg, libplacebo, Mesa and so on). Linux isn't after calling it all using some uniform "DirectFoo" naming scheme, but tools are there. Comparison is also invalid. Linux as a whole (not the kernel but OS experience) isn't controlled by some Big Brother who decides what and how it's done single mindedly. So such kind of composite result is somewhat expected.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Hence why it will never be embraced by desktop application developers, and Electron it is.
    - shmerl 3y ago
      Yeah, keep complaining about everything not being proprietary enough, while everyone who needs just makes it work (OBS, mpv, etc.).
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Those 2% will appreciate their efforts.
        shmerl 3y ago
        Those who use it appreciate their efforts. You aren't using it, why are you even complaining especially with complete nonsense comments. Anti Linux shilling should be getting old.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Unfortunely I still have to, from time to time. Luckly Android, ChromeOS and WebOS as proper Linux distributions have replaced most of it.
        bmicraft 3y ago
        Android hasn't displaced Linux on phones, there wasn't any. ChromeOS hasn't displaced Linux on school laptops, there wasn't any. LG WebOS hasn't displaced "Linux", it competes with Google TV (formerly Android TV)
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Oh boy, another Linux advocate on the lose. So here goes a children explanation. > Unfortunely I still have to, from time to time. I, pjmlp, still have to use GNU/Linux desktop from time to time. > Luckly Android, ChromeOS and WebOS as proper Linux distributions have replaced most of it. Android, ChromeOS and WebOS, have replaced most of my needs, pjmlp, for GNU/Linux in the desktop and similar devices.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Yeah on UNIX side, NeXTSTEP, Irix, Solaris had their own thing, as graphical workstation UNIXes, and were great. Ideally that kind of thing would be part of GNOME, or KDE, but then there are those that rather keep using twm like experience, making GNU/Linux really only good for headless experiences, at least the UNIX/POSIX part is always there.
- account42 3y ago
  Install ffmpeg and you have all the codec support you need. How is this a real problem? Yeah, binary software will have to ship its own copy of ffmpeg... This isn't unique to media codecs though.
- arp242 3y ago
  And when someone installs some obscure or outdated and vulnerable codec on these systems, it's then automatically exposed to all sorts of applications to exploit. Maybe Windows sandboxes that these days(?) It was definitely a problem in the past. No perfect solutions here; both "system-wide codecs" and "every application brings their own codecs" have their own up- and downsides. Besides, with ffmpeg and gstreamer the system-wide codecs paradigm also works on Linux. This is one of those "it's different but it doesn't really matter much" type of things. Most people "just" install vlc or mpv or whatnot and things will "just work" for them, not really different from Windows. That it's technically slightly different is almost entirely transparent to the user.
tagrun 3y ago
What is "incorrect"? The full sentence that you conveniently chose to cut in the middle before quoting (apparently to fit into some pessimistic forecast about the significance of Linux desktop) reads > Firefox currently supports hardware video decoding with Intel's vendor specific VA-API only on Linux, which is not supported by NVIDIA. (emphasis added) You further wrote: > Firefox uses Windows Media Foundation, which is cross-vendor, on Windows. It uses MediaCodec on Android which is again cross-vendor. And? None of those APIs are cross-platform. Vulkan Video will eventually allow developers (including Firefox developers) to write a single code path for video to cover a wide range of platforms and vendors (likely with the exception of walled gardens like Apple-land, although someone might find a way to support like via a wrapper like MoltenVk for Vulkan).
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > The full sentence that you conveniently chose to cut in the middle before quoting (apparently to fit into some pessimistic forecast about the significance of Linux desktop) reads What are you talking about? They didn't quote that sentence at all, and didn't cut in the middle of the sentence they quoted. > And? None of those APIs are cross-platform. Your original objection, the thing that got quoted, was about whether things are cross-vendor. That question is completely unrelated to whether things are cross-platform.
  - tagrun 3y ago
    My original statement above about what the point of Vulkan Video is > The idea behind Vulkan Video Extensions is to have a vendor independent and cross-platform video API. (emphasis added)
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      You did say that, but it's not the part of your post they were responding to.
      - tagrun 3y ago

Dalewyn 3y ago

I'm always annoyed how any Linux media player or encoder needs to bring its own entire media operating system, down to each individual nut and bolt. On Windows there's Windows Media Foundation and DirectShow that centrally manage everything and also support the "individual nut and bolt" approach. Android has its own central thing (MediaCodec?) that must be used. MacOS and iOS presumably have their own central manager (Quicktime?) too. But Linux? It doesn't serve as an operating system for media. It's tremendously inconvenient as an admin/user rather than an evangelist.

shmerl 3y ago
You don't need to implement every nut and bolt in the application. Lot's of useful things can do the heavy lifting (Pipewire, ffmpeg, libplacebo, Mesa and so on). Linux isn't after calling it all using some uniform "DirectFoo" naming scheme, but tools are there. Comparison is also invalid. Linux as a whole (not the kernel but OS experience) isn't controlled by some Big Brother who decides what and how it's done single mindedly. So such kind of composite result is somewhat expected.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Hence why it will never be embraced by desktop application developers, and Electron it is.
  - shmerl 3y ago
    Yeah, keep complaining about everything not being proprietary enough, while everyone who needs just makes it work (OBS, mpv, etc.).
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Those 2% will appreciate their efforts.
      - shmerl 3y ago
        Those who use it appreciate their efforts. You aren't using it, why are you even complaining especially with complete nonsense comments. Anti Linux shilling should be getting old.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Unfortunely I still have to, from time to time. Luckly Android, ChromeOS and WebOS as proper Linux distributions have replaced most of it.
        bmicraft 3y ago
        Android hasn't displaced Linux on phones, there wasn't any. ChromeOS hasn't displaced Linux on school laptops, there wasn't any. LG WebOS hasn't displaced "Linux", it competes with Google TV (formerly Android TV)
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Oh boy, another Linux advocate on the lose. So here goes a children explanation. > Unfortunely I still have to, from time to time. I, pjmlp, still have to use GNU/Linux desktop from time to time. > Luckly Android, ChromeOS and WebOS as proper Linux distributions have replaced most of it. Android, ChromeOS and WebOS, have replaced most of my needs, pjmlp, for GNU/Linux in the desktop and similar devices.
pjmlp 3y ago
Yeah on UNIX side, NeXTSTEP, Irix, Solaris had their own thing, as graphical workstation UNIXes, and were great. Ideally that kind of thing would be part of GNOME, or KDE, but then there are those that rather keep using twm like experience, making GNU/Linux really only good for headless experiences, at least the UNIX/POSIX part is always there.
account42 3y ago
Install ffmpeg and you have all the codec support you need. How is this a real problem? Yeah, binary software will have to ship its own copy of ffmpeg... This isn't unique to media codecs though.
arp242 3y ago
And when someone installs some obscure or outdated and vulnerable codec on these systems, it's then automatically exposed to all sorts of applications to exploit. Maybe Windows sandboxes that these days(?) It was definitely a problem in the past. No perfect solutions here; both "system-wide codecs" and "every application brings their own codecs" have their own up- and downsides. Besides, with ffmpeg and gstreamer the system-wide codecs paradigm also works on Linux. This is one of those "it's different but it doesn't really matter much" type of things. Most people "just" install vlc or mpv or whatnot and things will "just work" for them, not really different from Windows. That it's technically slightly different is almost entirely transparent to the user.

tagrun 3y ago

What is "incorrect"? The full sentence that you conveniently chose to cut in the middle before quoting (apparently to fit into some pessimistic forecast about the significance of Linux desktop) reads > Firefox currently supports hardware video decoding with Intel's vendor specific VA-API only on Linux, which is not supported by NVIDIA. (emphasis added) You further wrote: > Firefox uses Windows Media Foundation, which is cross-vendor, on Windows. It uses MediaCodec on Android which is again cross-vendor. And? None of those APIs are cross-platform. Vulkan Video will eventually allow developers (including Firefox developers) to write a single code path for video to cover a wide range of platforms and vendors (likely with the exception of walled gardens like Apple-land, although someone might find a way to support like via a wrapper like MoltenVk for Vulkan).

Dylan16807 3y ago
> The full sentence that you conveniently chose to cut in the middle before quoting (apparently to fit into some pessimistic forecast about the significance of Linux desktop) reads What are you talking about? They didn't quote that sentence at all, and didn't cut in the middle of the sentence they quoted. > And? None of those APIs are cross-platform. Your original objection, the thing that got quoted, was about whether things are cross-vendor. That question is completely unrelated to whether things are cross-platform.
- tagrun 3y ago
  My original statement above about what the point of Vulkan Video is > The idea behind Vulkan Video Extensions is to have a vendor independent and cross-platform video API. (emphasis added)
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    You did say that, but it's not the part of your post they were responding to.
    - tagrun 3y ago