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When the opening line is "Just days after Tesla was forced to recall nearly every car it ever made over safety issues involving its Autopilot system..", it's ha

by sxp 3y ago

When the opening line is "Just days after Tesla was forced to recall nearly every car it ever made over safety issues involving its Autopilot system..", it's hard to take the rest of the article seriously. The "recall" is actually the NHTSA pushing Tesla to change how they monitor drivers. "The fix will be deployed to roughly two million cars via an over-the-air update that should prevent owners from tricking the system." from TFA's link. The linked LendingTree article actually says "Across 30 car brands analyzed, Ram has the worst drivers. Nationally, Ram drivers had 32.90 driving incidents (accidents, DUIs, speeding and citations) per 1,000 drivers from Nov. 14, 2022, through Nov. 14, 2023. Tesla (31.13) and Subaru (30.09) were the only other brands whose drivers had incident rates above 30.00.". Without further breakdown of accident/incident types and segmentation by gender & age, TheDrive's article is just wild speculation.

h0l0cube 3y ago
The article quotes both ‘accident’ and ‘incident’ rates and explains the distinction: > According to LendingTree, between Nov. 14, 2022, and Nov. 14, 2023, there were 23.54 Tesla accidents per 1,000 drivers. Only two other brands had more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers, Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90). That accident rate also helped it earn the second-highest incident rate, 31.13, behind only Ram (32.90). The difference between accident rate and incident rate is that the latter also factors DUIs, speeding, and any other citations.
stonogo 3y ago
It's a little weird to discount an article because it accurately reports a fact, using well-defined terms. It's getting exhausting listening to Tesla fans re-prosecute the definition of 'recall' any time someone uses the term correctly.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  I see both sides, a recall is usually a very expensive process of each car returning to a particular car service business and having manual actions performed on it by a mechanic. That might include software updates, plugging in a tool to push an update; but by direct local connection. OTA updates feel different, particularly when the vehicle isn't physically _recalled_ to a manufacturer controlled service space. I'm not that familiar with the recall, would NHTSA have demanded it if it were all Tesla cars being physically recalled? (potentially resulting in the end of Tesla?)
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    The mechanism improvements? Great. The safety oversight/defect in the first place was no less of a problem before it was fixed, just because it could be fixed remotely.
  - stonogo 3y ago
    The fact that it feels different isn't really relevant. The recall process means Tesla has to track every VIN and keep records on which vehicle is repaired. Consider the hypothetical: if a person stores their Tesla unpowered in an underground garage for ten years, and then takes it out of storage and starts driving it, Tesla will still be on the hook to fix this, even if the OTA update process isn't compatible any more. So despite the fact that most of the subject cars can be fixed remotely, there's nothing stopping this specific recall from becoming a physical recall down the road, if Tesla identifies vehicles that can't get the update OTA. Here's the official guidance on the topic: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-mvsdefectsandrecalls_041619-v2-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-... Here's the official recall report: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF In these recalls, there's always a negotiation process. NHTSA prefers for vendors to issue voluntary recalls, which is what happened here. Whether or not they would have demanded physical modifications probably depends on how dangerous they consider the defect. 2 million cars isn't even close to the biggest recall so far (I think GM or Chrysler has that privilege, but it's a fuzzy memory). Tesla probably would have survived it even if they had to physically plug a cable into each car to run the update.
acdha 3y ago
It’s called a recall because that’s the name of the legal mechanism used by the NHTSA to make sure a manufacturer tracks all of their vehicles’ remediation. If this bothers you, contact your congressional representatives asking them to force it to use a more marketing-friendly name.
- sshine 3y ago
  > If [the word "recall"] bothers you, contact your congressional representatives I'm not a US citizen, so I have no congressional representatives. This use of the word is just wrong, I don't care about the legal use precedence. The word "recall" means "to call back, to return". And Tesla is not returning any vehicles. They're being forced to make a software update. You can make it sound worse if you like. But it's not a recall in any sense of returning anything anywhere.
  - Volundr 3y ago
    This is a weird hill to die on. Plenty of recalls have been issued for what amounts to software updates, that required driving it back to the dealership. I don't see why it should suddenly be called something else because the car has a connection to the Internet now, removing the need to have it physically present it update.
    - sshine 3y ago
      > I don't see why it should suddenly be called something else because the car has a connection to the Internet now, removing the need to have it physically present it update. Recall means “call back”. What we want to say is “update” or “downgrade” or “restrict” or “Fuck Tesla!” depending on the intent. You could say that you can recall a feature if you disable it in a software update. Even though the software doesn’t actually get returned, but just gets deleted, it’s a metaphorical recall. You are not recalling the car itself, because it doesn’t go anywhere. I’m not sure defendingg this word use is any more weird than to die on the opposing hill of insisting updating a car’s software is a recall of the car.
  - acdha 3y ago
ceejayoz 3y ago
A regulator-forced over-the-air update is still a safety recall. The important part is "they were required to change something", not where the maintenance physically occurs.
Analemma_ 3y ago
It's crazy to me that we use the word "recall" to mean "mandatory software update". I have no problem with NHTSA (or whatever) requiring car companies to do updates for faulty software, but the word "recall" is completely inappropriate for this process. A recall should mean that I have to drive it to the dealership to fix/replace some defective hardware component. If I don't even know it happens because the car downloaded a software update overnight, it's not a fucking recall.
- josefritz 3y ago
  the fact that the problem is resolvable OTA is a feature of Tesla, a positive. Another make with the same issue might require a visit to the dealership. The problem is the same. Debating semantics beyond that is without merit.
- acdha 3y ago
  > It's crazy to me that we use the word "recall" to mean "mandatory software update". Good news, we don’t. It means that a manufacturer is required to check each vehicle they sold and make it safe or remove it from the road. The key part to understand is that they are required to check each vehicle, not just assume everyone will see the news and contact them. Since Tesla can fix this with a software update trackable over the air, they’re saving a lot of money but it’s still a safety defect which needs to be corrected.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> The "recall" is actually the NHTSA pushing Tesla to change how they monitor drivers. That's a recall. That's a government body having to "push" (in your own words no less) to improve safety. Let's be honest, Tesla generally has to be dragged kicking and screaming to anything for safety (from matters as benign as Elon throwing a tantrum about the aesthetics of airbag warning on sunvisors to the fact that when AP was released, it only did steering wheel checks every fifteen minutes, and it's been several iterations of pressure to make them as frequent as they are now). It's good to have the advancement of mechanisms for OTA updates. It's still a recall, no matter how much Tesla fans scream "better than the dinosaurs".
- sshine 3y ago
  > Elon throwing a tantrum Elon didn't throw a tantrum. He didn't throw himself at the floor screaming like a child. I don't recall he ever did that. And by that I mean: I never forced a car maker to issue a software update. (That's obviously what "recall" means, like reckless tweeting is "throwing a tantrum".) > It's still a recall, no matter how much Tesla fans scream It's possible that both of these are true at once: 1. "Recall" has a legal definition in the car industry 2. "Recall" means returning something to the manufacturer So you can be right in the first, and others (myself included) can be right that it doesn't make sense to think of a forced software update as a recall. Maybe if everyone's autopilot was forcefully deleted and reimbursed, you could call it a recall of that feature. But if autopilot wasn't taken off the shelves and it just behaves differently, then you're stretching the meaning of "recall" to a philosophical extreme. For the sake of argument, THIS IS SCREAMING!!! Objecting to a skewed media narrative isn't.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > Elon didn't throw a tantrum. > He didn't throw himself at the floor screaming like a child. > I don't recall he ever did that. He specifically exclaimed "Fuck it, I don't care, we'll pay the fines" rather than having that adornment in the vehicle. Just because your literalism says that it's not, because there were no mashed fists against the floor, doesn't make it less so, particularly when the definition of tantrum is around outbursts of anger, often immaturely. > But if autopilot wasn't taken off the shelves and it just behaves differently, then you're stretching the meaning of "recall" to a philosophical extreme. Also, then I guess two of my Audi recalls weren't actually recalls either. One involved updating the software for the 'passenger occupancy detection system'. A USB stick was plugged into the car. It didn't happen OTA, but nothing was touched or removed or installed on the vehicle. But I'm sure that would somehow be a recall still. Mechanism. Intent. Two separate things.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by sxp 3y ago

h0l0cube 3y ago

The article quotes both ‘accident’ and ‘incident’ rates and explains the distinction: > According to LendingTree, between Nov. 14, 2022, and Nov. 14, 2023, there were 23.54 Tesla accidents per 1,000 drivers. Only two other brands had more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers, Ram (22.76) and Subaru (20.90). That accident rate also helped it earn the second-highest incident rate, 31.13, behind only Ram (32.90). The difference between accident rate and incident rate is that the latter also factors DUIs, speeding, and any other citations.

stonogo 3y ago

It's a little weird to discount an article because it accurately reports a fact, using well-defined terms. It's getting exhausting listening to Tesla fans re-prosecute the definition of 'recall' any time someone uses the term correctly.

pbhjpbhj 3y ago
I see both sides, a recall is usually a very expensive process of each car returning to a particular car service business and having manual actions performed on it by a mechanic. That might include software updates, plugging in a tool to push an update; but by direct local connection. OTA updates feel different, particularly when the vehicle isn't physically _recalled_ to a manufacturer controlled service space. I'm not that familiar with the recall, would NHTSA have demanded it if it were all Tesla cars being physically recalled? (potentially resulting in the end of Tesla?)
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  The mechanism improvements? Great. The safety oversight/defect in the first place was no less of a problem before it was fixed, just because it could be fixed remotely.
- stonogo 3y ago
  The fact that it feels different isn't really relevant. The recall process means Tesla has to track every VIN and keep records on which vehicle is repaired. Consider the hypothetical: if a person stores their Tesla unpowered in an underground garage for ten years, and then takes it out of storage and starts driving it, Tesla will still be on the hook to fix this, even if the OTA update process isn't compatible any more. So despite the fact that most of the subject cars can be fixed remotely, there's nothing stopping this specific recall from becoming a physical recall down the road, if Tesla identifies vehicles that can't get the update OTA. Here's the official guidance on the topic: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-mvsdefectsandrecalls_041619-v2-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/14218-... Here's the official recall report: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V838-8276.PDF In these recalls, there's always a negotiation process. NHTSA prefers for vendors to issue voluntary recalls, which is what happened here. Whether or not they would have demanded physical modifications probably depends on how dangerous they consider the defect. 2 million cars isn't even close to the biggest recall so far (I think GM or Chrysler has that privilege, but it's a fuzzy memory). Tesla probably would have survived it even if they had to physically plug a cable into each car to run the update.

acdha 3y ago

It’s called a recall because that’s the name of the legal mechanism used by the NHTSA to make sure a manufacturer tracks all of their vehicles’ remediation. If this bothers you, contact your congressional representatives asking them to force it to use a more marketing-friendly name.

sshine 3y ago
> If [the word "recall"] bothers you, contact your congressional representatives I'm not a US citizen, so I have no congressional representatives. This use of the word is just wrong, I don't care about the legal use precedence. The word "recall" means "to call back, to return". And Tesla is not returning any vehicles. They're being forced to make a software update. You can make it sound worse if you like. But it's not a recall in any sense of returning anything anywhere.
- Volundr 3y ago
  This is a weird hill to die on. Plenty of recalls have been issued for what amounts to software updates, that required driving it back to the dealership. I don't see why it should suddenly be called something else because the car has a connection to the Internet now, removing the need to have it physically present it update.
  - sshine 3y ago
    > I don't see why it should suddenly be called something else because the car has a connection to the Internet now, removing the need to have it physically present it update. Recall means “call back”. What we want to say is “update” or “downgrade” or “restrict” or “Fuck Tesla!” depending on the intent. You could say that you can recall a feature if you disable it in a software update. Even though the software doesn’t actually get returned, but just gets deleted, it’s a metaphorical recall. You are not recalling the car itself, because it doesn’t go anywhere. I’m not sure defendingg this word use is any more weird than to die on the opposing hill of insisting updating a car’s software is a recall of the car.
- acdha 3y ago

ceejayoz 3y ago

A regulator-forced over-the-air update is still a safety recall. The important part is "they were required to change something", not where the maintenance physically occurs.

Analemma_ 3y ago

It's crazy to me that we use the word "recall" to mean "mandatory software update". I have no problem with NHTSA (or whatever) requiring car companies to do updates for faulty software, but the word "recall" is completely inappropriate for this process. A recall should mean that I have to drive it to the dealership to fix/replace some defective hardware component. If I don't even know it happens because the car downloaded a software update overnight, it's not a fucking recall.

josefritz 3y ago
the fact that the problem is resolvable OTA is a feature of Tesla, a positive. Another make with the same issue might require a visit to the dealership. The problem is the same. Debating semantics beyond that is without merit.
acdha 3y ago
> It's crazy to me that we use the word "recall" to mean "mandatory software update". Good news, we don’t. It means that a manufacturer is required to check each vehicle they sold and make it safe or remove it from the road. The key part to understand is that they are required to check each vehicle, not just assume everyone will see the news and contact them. Since Tesla can fix this with a software update trackable over the air, they’re saving a lot of money but it’s still a safety defect which needs to be corrected.

FireBeyond 3y ago

> The "recall" is actually the NHTSA pushing Tesla to change how they monitor drivers. That's a recall. That's a government body having to "push" (in your own words no less) to improve safety. Let's be honest, Tesla generally has to be dragged kicking and screaming to anything for safety (from matters as benign as Elon throwing a tantrum about the aesthetics of airbag warning on sunvisors to the fact that when AP was released, it only did steering wheel checks every fifteen minutes, and it's been several iterations of pressure to make them as frequent as they are now). It's good to have the advancement of mechanisms for OTA updates. It's still a recall, no matter how much Tesla fans scream "better than the dinosaurs".

sshine 3y ago
> Elon throwing a tantrum Elon didn't throw a tantrum. He didn't throw himself at the floor screaming like a child. I don't recall he ever did that. And by that I mean: I never forced a car maker to issue a software update. (That's obviously what "recall" means, like reckless tweeting is "throwing a tantrum".) > It's still a recall, no matter how much Tesla fans scream It's possible that both of these are true at once: 1. "Recall" has a legal definition in the car industry 2. "Recall" means returning something to the manufacturer So you can be right in the first, and others (myself included) can be right that it doesn't make sense to think of a forced software update as a recall. Maybe if everyone's autopilot was forcefully deleted and reimbursed, you could call it a recall of that feature. But if autopilot wasn't taken off the shelves and it just behaves differently, then you're stretching the meaning of "recall" to a philosophical extreme. For the sake of argument, THIS IS SCREAMING!!! Objecting to a skewed media narrative isn't.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > Elon didn't throw a tantrum. > He didn't throw himself at the floor screaming like a child. > I don't recall he ever did that. He specifically exclaimed "Fuck it, I don't care, we'll pay the fines" rather than having that adornment in the vehicle. Just because your literalism says that it's not, because there were no mashed fists against the floor, doesn't make it less so, particularly when the definition of tantrum is around outbursts of anger, often immaturely. > But if autopilot wasn't taken off the shelves and it just behaves differently, then you're stretching the meaning of "recall" to a philosophical extreme. Also, then I guess two of my Audi recalls weren't actually recalls either. One involved updating the software for the 'passenger occupancy detection system'. A USB stick was plugged into the car. It didn't happen OTA, but nothing was touched or removed or installed on the vehicle. But I'm sure that would somehow be a recall still. Mechanism. Intent. Two separate things.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]