7 ms·

I see this as a reap what you sow moment for Lufthasa. Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone.

I see this as a reap what you sow moment for Lufthasa. Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone. I used to watch both these airports fairly frequently from Oyster bay regional park, they are both super busy with flights often lining up to the horizon.

snypher 3y ago
“okay, you promised me 10 minutes, that ran out four minutes ago, so how many more minutes?” Seems to me that ATC need to get it together also.
- wtallis 3y ago
  Yeah, whether Lufthansa's polices are reasonable or excessively cautious is debatable, but the ATC here obviously gave unambiguously wrong information about the delay.
  - kayodelycaon 3y ago
    Delays are estimates. They can’t be guaranteed. All it takes is one other plane to be slow to act.
    - wtallis 3y ago
      Estimates and predictions that turn out to be wrong are still wrong. And when the estimate was wrong by 50% and counting, and the ATC wasn't offering any information other than another dubious estimate, and the ATC was not handling the flights in a FIFO order, the Lufthansa pilots were left with uncomfortably little useful information about their situation.
      - cycomanic 3y ago
        Just a note the estimate wasn't just wrong by 50% the pilots had already been told 10min twice before, so estimate was more than 300% off by that time.
    - JAlexoid 3y ago
      When flying and being responsible for an aircraft full of people - estimates take a very different meaning.
      - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
        That’s why flight plans have diversion fields, with requirements to have enough field to get to the diversion airport, and even to hold _there_.
        p_l 3y ago
        That also means that when ATC tells someone they will inform them in 10 minutes,they are obliged to tell them in 10 minutes, even if it's "sorry, we don't have a slot, we can get you info in next ten minutes or help you to diversion airport". Not have to be reminded that there's a plane in holding waiting for information. Unless they want a repeat of telling a plane to hold till it crashed into sea.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Or maybe SFO is already over capacity and can’t safely take the traffic assigned to it?
  - JAlexoid 3y ago
    Then it's literally ATCs responsibility to inform the incoming aircraft of that. That's why there's a diversion airport.
    - vkou 3y ago
      The controller didn't have an ETA, the pilot was offered to hold or divert. The pilot didn't want to divert, and hoped that complaining would get them out of the hold. From a safety perspective, this all seems to have worked as intended.
      - growse 3y ago
        The problem is that the hold is effectively indefinite in the controller's mind, and therefore not an option. But that's not what they said on the radio.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
noxvilleza 3y ago
This wasn't some new policy of Lufthansa though, apparently it's their SOP for basically all airports. Outside the US, I'm not sure if visual approaches are all that common for (heavy) aircraft at night. Overall, the reason that SFO wants visual approaches is to increase rate of landing, and the reason that Lufthansa wants ILS is to increase safety -- your phrasing "Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone" just seems wrong, having more safety seems totally justified and reasonable here. I'm actually surprised SFO still allows visual approaches at night after that Air Canada 759 flight nearly landed on the taxiway ~5 years ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGQlQFn0euI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGQlQFn0euI).
- jaywalk 3y ago
  > your phrasing "Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone" just seems wrong, having more safety seems totally justified and reasonable here. It's so "justified and reasonable" that nobody else does it. Maybe it's not quite so justified or as reasonable as you think.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > It's so "justified and reasonable" that nobody else does it. Airlines are a cutthroat business and many will go for profit rather than for safety if they're allowed to. The large American airlines, for what it's worth, are actually loss leaders [1]. [1] https://happyrichadvisor.com/loss-leaders/ https://happyrichadvisor.com/loss-leaders/
  - noxvilleza 3y ago
    > that nobody else does it. Apparently some Canadian carriers do also have this as a SOP. Around the time this happened I spoke to some friends who are ATCs (in the US) who all immediately agreed it was a very reasonable request, especially given that the request was made far enough out (so it wasn't like they'd have to quickly scramble to respace the incoming planes correctly in the sequence).
    - xenadu02 3y ago
jMyles 3y ago
> Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Is it really so much to ask that an ILS-equipped airport... provide an ILS approach? I'm generally on your side here; the controllers did a good job with what resources they had. But there seem to be an awful lot of oddities / operational hangups through NorCal TRACON.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  ILS approaches require far more separation than visual ones.
- jaywalk 3y ago
  With every other plane on visual, they can't just stick an ILS approach in there without messing everyone else up.
thrill 3y ago
"Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone." It is literally ATC's job to facilitate the safe separation of aircraft. Note I said facilitate, not ensure, because ensuring safe separation and operation remains in the cockpit. When a pilot arrives at an airport and requests a specific approach, whether that reason is company policy or the limitations of weather, it is ATC's job to accept that request or deny it, and not to beat around the bush suggesting doing one thing and calling it another. When they give an expected time for something the pilot makes decisions in the cockpit if that new limitation will work with whatever limitations already exist. If ATC is not operating honestly then that should be viewed as what it is - a compromise of safety, and a petty unnecessary one at that. If ATC is unable to accommodate the request then it needs to be stated so explicitly and as soon as possible because lives are literally part of the equation. Air traffic can be lined up from SFO all the way back to London and that still doesn't change ATC's responsibilities one bit. ATC does not "accommodate" because that implies they exercise some arbitrary discretion and not clear binary criteria.
- hugh-avherald 3y ago
  ATC is responsible for separation of IFR aircraft in Class C and Class B airspace (which this almost certainly was).
FireBeyond 3y ago
> Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Apropos of the other issues already being well debated: 1. ATCs role is to facilitate use of the airport. 2. They/the airport are being paid by Lufthansa to do so: ~$4,000 landing fee based on the OEW + 5% fuel being 340,000lb at $9.11/1000 lb. ~$800 for up to 8 hours at a gate (or a flat rate of $36,000/mo per aircraft for a frequently visiting ship). ~$1,000 for common use of terminal facilities (for airlines that don't have dedicated terminals - often with internationals, where they have the common check in area that is used by multiple airlines). And that's not all the charges the airline gets from the airport, that's just the majority of the charges for "1 aircraft, 1 landing/departure" at SFO.
- ra7 3y ago
  This is great information. Are these pricing details publicly available for airports?
  - p_l 3y ago
    Yes, landing fees are public and in most countries are set same for everyone based on type of aircraft and sometimes operations, but not who is flying. They are supposed to directly reflect funding of airport maintenance, thus fees decided based on how damaging the plane is to the runway etc.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    https://www.flysfo.com/sites/default/files/assets/investor/FY20-21_Summary_of_Airport_Charges.pdf https://www.flysfo.com/sites/default/files/assets/investor/F...
  - filleduchaos 3y ago
    Additionally, there's a whole laundry list of charges you can see on most international flight tickets. For example on my last flight ticket from Nigeria (my country of residence) to the US with United, there are Nigeria-specific sales taxes and airport service charge fees listed as well as two separate US Customs and Immigrations fees, a "September 11th Security fee", and a US transportation tax.
supportengineer 3y ago
Driving south on a clear night on Highway 101, from SFO on down, is a neat experience because you can see these planes lined up clearly for about 20 miles. All the way down to the South Bay and beyond.

snypher 3y ago

“okay, you promised me 10 minutes, that ran out four minutes ago, so how many more minutes?” Seems to me that ATC need to get it together also.

wtallis 3y ago
Yeah, whether Lufthansa's polices are reasonable or excessively cautious is debatable, but the ATC here obviously gave unambiguously wrong information about the delay.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  Delays are estimates. They can’t be guaranteed. All it takes is one other plane to be slow to act.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    Estimates and predictions that turn out to be wrong are still wrong. And when the estimate was wrong by 50% and counting, and the ATC wasn't offering any information other than another dubious estimate, and the ATC was not handling the flights in a FIFO order, the Lufthansa pilots were left with uncomfortably little useful information about their situation.
    - cycomanic 3y ago
      Just a note the estimate wasn't just wrong by 50% the pilots had already been told 10min twice before, so estimate was more than 300% off by that time.
  - JAlexoid 3y ago
    When flying and being responsible for an aircraft full of people - estimates take a very different meaning.
    - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
      That’s why flight plans have diversion fields, with requirements to have enough field to get to the diversion airport, and even to hold _there_.
      - p_l 3y ago
        That also means that when ATC tells someone they will inform them in 10 minutes,they are obliged to tell them in 10 minutes, even if it's "sorry, we don't have a slot, we can get you info in next ten minutes or help you to diversion airport". Not have to be reminded that there's a plane in holding waiting for information. Unless they want a repeat of telling a plane to hold till it crashed into sea.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Or maybe SFO is already over capacity and can’t safely take the traffic assigned to it?
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  Then it's literally ATCs responsibility to inform the incoming aircraft of that. That's why there's a diversion airport.
  - vkou 3y ago
    The controller didn't have an ETA, the pilot was offered to hold or divert. The pilot didn't want to divert, and hoped that complaining would get them out of the hold. From a safety perspective, this all seems to have worked as intended.
    - growse 3y ago
      The problem is that the hold is effectively indefinite in the controller's mind, and therefore not an option. But that's not what they said on the radio.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

noxvilleza 3y ago

This wasn't some new policy of Lufthansa though, apparently it's their SOP for basically all airports. Outside the US, I'm not sure if visual approaches are all that common for (heavy) aircraft at night. Overall, the reason that SFO wants visual approaches is to increase rate of landing, and the reason that Lufthansa wants ILS is to increase safety -- your phrasing "Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone" just seems wrong, having more safety seems totally justified and reasonable here. I'm actually surprised SFO still allows visual approaches at night after that Air Canada 759 flight nearly landed on the taxiway ~5 years ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGQlQFn0euI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGQlQFn0euI).

jaywalk 3y ago
> your phrasing "Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone" just seems wrong, having more safety seems totally justified and reasonable here. It's so "justified and reasonable" that nobody else does it. Maybe it's not quite so justified or as reasonable as you think.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > It's so "justified and reasonable" that nobody else does it. Airlines are a cutthroat business and many will go for profit rather than for safety if they're allowed to. The large American airlines, for what it's worth, are actually loss leaders [1]. [1] https://happyrichadvisor.com/loss-leaders/ https://happyrichadvisor.com/loss-leaders/
- noxvilleza 3y ago
  > that nobody else does it. Apparently some Canadian carriers do also have this as a SOP. Around the time this happened I spoke to some friends who are ATCs (in the US) who all immediately agreed it was a very reasonable request, especially given that the request was made far enough out (so it wasn't like they'd have to quickly scramble to respace the incoming planes correctly in the sequence).
  - xenadu02 3y ago

jMyles 3y ago

> Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Is it really so much to ask that an ILS-equipped airport... provide an ILS approach? I'm generally on your side here; the controllers did a good job with what resources they had. But there seem to be an awful lot of oddities / operational hangups through NorCal TRACON.

kayodelycaon 3y ago
ILS approaches require far more separation than visual ones.
jaywalk 3y ago
With every other plane on visual, they can't just stick an ILS approach in there without messing everyone else up.

thrill 3y ago

"Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Lufthasa is the one making this hard on everyone." It is literally ATC's job to facilitate the safe separation of aircraft. Note I said facilitate, not ensure, because ensuring safe separation and operation remains in the cockpit. When a pilot arrives at an airport and requests a specific approach, whether that reason is company policy or the limitations of weather, it is ATC's job to accept that request or deny it, and not to beat around the bush suggesting doing one thing and calling it another. When they give an expected time for something the pilot makes decisions in the cockpit if that new limitation will work with whatever limitations already exist. If ATC is not operating honestly then that should be viewed as what it is - a compromise of safety, and a petty unnecessary one at that. If ATC is unable to accommodate the request then it needs to be stated so explicitly and as soon as possible because lives are literally part of the equation. Air traffic can be lined up from SFO all the way back to London and that still doesn't change ATC's responsibilities one bit. ATC does not "accommodate" because that implies they exercise some arbitrary discretion and not clear binary criteria.

hugh-avherald 3y ago
ATC is responsible for separation of IFR aircraft in Class C and Class B airspace (which this almost certainly was).

FireBeyond 3y ago

> Why should ATC at a busy airport be so accommodating? Apropos of the other issues already being well debated: 1. ATCs role is to facilitate use of the airport. 2. They/the airport are being paid by Lufthansa to do so: ~$4,000 landing fee based on the OEW + 5% fuel being 340,000lb at $9.11/1000 lb. ~$800 for up to 8 hours at a gate (or a flat rate of $36,000/mo per aircraft for a frequently visiting ship). ~$1,000 for common use of terminal facilities (for airlines that don't have dedicated terminals - often with internationals, where they have the common check in area that is used by multiple airlines). And that's not all the charges the airline gets from the airport, that's just the majority of the charges for "1 aircraft, 1 landing/departure" at SFO.

ra7 3y ago
This is great information. Are these pricing details publicly available for airports?
- p_l 3y ago
  Yes, landing fees are public and in most countries are set same for everyone based on type of aircraft and sometimes operations, but not who is flying. They are supposed to directly reflect funding of airport maintenance, thus fees decided based on how damaging the plane is to the runway etc.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  https://www.flysfo.com/sites/default/files/assets/investor/FY20-21_Summary_of_Airport_Charges.pdf https://www.flysfo.com/sites/default/files/assets/investor/F...
- filleduchaos 3y ago
  Additionally, there's a whole laundry list of charges you can see on most international flight tickets. For example on my last flight ticket from Nigeria (my country of residence) to the US with United, there are Nigeria-specific sales taxes and airport service charge fees listed as well as two separate US Customs and Immigrations fees, a "September 11th Security fee", and a US transportation tax.

supportengineer 3y ago

Driving south on a clear night on Highway 101, from SFO on down, is a neat experience because you can see these planes lined up clearly for about 20 miles. All the way down to the South Bay and beyond.