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Right, I think the solution to this, which already exists, is other preinstalled stores, like Samsung or Amazon stores, by OEMs. What should probably be illegal

Right, I think the solution to this, which already exists, is other preinstalled stores, like Samsung or Amazon stores, by OEMs. What should probably be illegal is making deals forcing OEMs to have exclusive app store deals? That being said, that's also a shitty situation for consumers, as having many or different app stores is confusing and just leads to the very fragmentation people have complain about on Android for a decade. This is the real duality of the situation. On the one hand, people criticize Android for not being as cohesive an experience as iOS, but on the other hand, anything Google does to make it more cohesive will be seen as anti-competitive. Same with security.

amadeuspagel 3y ago
> Right, I think the solution to this, which already exists, is other preinstalled stores, like Samsung or Amazon stores, by OEMs. What should probably be illegal is making deals forcing OEMs to have exclusive app store deals? I have another store on my phone called "Mi Picks", which was preinstalled. I've never used it. Why would I? The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to, to install a specific app, this is of course the situation on PC where you need to install another store for every game, and this is the only thing that Google made deals to prevent.
- ehsankia 3y ago
  I'm mostly agreeing with you. Steam definitely has a monopoly of PC gaming, but it's also true that having a single place with all your games and friends is far more convenient. I'm not sure where the right balance is. Are we paying more due to the lack of competition to Valve's 30%? Would more competition be worth the fragmentation? Look at streaming services and the mess that has become. I'm not sure what the answer is.
  - georgyo 3y ago
    Steam is a bit of a very special case and I think very different from either Apple or Google stores. Steam is never part of a platform, except for maybe the steam deck, and even there it lets you very easily replace it. Steam will install other stores automatically for you. Does the game need EA's origin or what ever the epic store is called? It will install it as part of playing that game. Users will have multiple stores installed and will continue to choose Steam. In the case of Apple or Google, I'm given a store forcefully. Google let's you jump through hoops to get another store but it isn't easy. To even get Steam, you as a user have to make a very conscious choice to install it. Steam is very much the choice of users and even many developers. Steam is a private company and doesn't seem in the business of ever attempting to screw with or limit users. Hell, Steams development of wine/pronton is the explicit choice to give users more choice. Steam maybe an app store, but IMHO it is definitely not ever forcing anyone to do anything, unlike Apple or Google.
    - amadeuspagel 3y ago
      > In the case of Apple or Google, I'm given a store forcefully. Google let's you jump through hoops to get another store but it isn't easy. Every Samsung and Xiami phone comes with another store.
      - georgyo 3y ago
        I think you missed my point. Even if that is the case, it is still another store that the hardware vendor installed. Most likely uninstallable without rooting the device. Steam does not come preinstalled (except for the steam deck), users choose to install it on platforms they own. Steam is removable from all platforms with minimum fuss. Steam can and will install competing app stores. None of these facts are true on Apple, Google, or other preinstalled mobile app stores.
        lern_too_spel 3y ago
        > Most likely uninstallable without rooting the device. You can disable them without rooting your device. I just verified.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to, to install a specific app Obvious counterexample: The other store charges 4% instead of 15% or 30% and correspondingly the exact same app is cheaper there.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    Steam charges 30% and is completely dominant on PC, and there's competitor that tries to compete by charging 4%.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      It's common to install PC games without an app store at all. Does the store charging 4% have the same games but for lower prices? Which one would you use if that were the case?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- gear54rus 3y ago
  ...or when this shitty play store decides that something is not available for my device and/or region for some idiotic reason again
- g-b-r 3y ago
  > The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to ...or if the default store had terms you'd rather do without...
g-b-r 3y ago
> anything Google does to make it more cohesive will be seen as anti-competitive.. Sure, anything Google does to make it more cohesive... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... https://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-lawsuit-motorola-samsung https://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-l...
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> That being said, that's also a shitty situation for consumers, as having many or different app stores is confusing and just leads to the very fragmentation people have complain about on Android for a decade. Are people confused because they can choose whether to buy things at Walmart, Target, Amazon or the local convenience store? Is this "fragmentation"? Should we get rid of these others and have only Amazon, so people aren't confused? It's not really that confusing. You can go to any shady website on the internet and give them your credit card number and find out what happens, but people mostly just buy things from stores they trust -- even though there are many of them. Why is this different? (Actual reason: Because the incumbents suppress the other stores so none of them gets popular enough to establish a reputation with the public at large.)
- Scion9066 3y ago
  Because it might not end up being a choice of which store to get things from like your physical goods example. For the larger apps/those from specific publishers it may likely be a choice of: Meta apps only from the Meta Store, Epic Games apps only from the Epic Games store, etc. And regarding the security aspect: once people expect to download a random app store for every company, they'll be less hesitant to download one that's just malware.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > For the larger apps/those from specific publishers it may likely be a choice of: Meta apps only from the Meta Store, Epic Games apps only from the Epic Games store, etc. That's not really different than anything else. You can only get Great Value brand products from Walmart. But when this happens it's typically because the store and the maker of the product are the same company. Then you don't have to worry about the store having a monopoly because either the product has competitors, and then you can use those, or it doesn't, in which case you're dealing with a monopolist regardless of how many stores you can get it from. But it's not even clear this would happen if there actually was competition between stores, because why does every random company need its own store if there was enough competition between stores that they could just put their app in existing popular stores without having to pay excessive margins or being subject to abusive monopoly practices? > And regarding the security aspect: once people expect to download a random app store for every company, they'll be less hesitant to download one that's just malware. An app store which is just malware would be illegal, and then get removed by court order for being illegal (or cease to exist because the proprietors are in prison). You can allow legitimate competitors without allowing overt criminal activity. The obvious distinction is that who decides what's prohibited is an elected government subject to constitutional restrictions rather than a competitor with a conflict of interest.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

> Right, I think the solution to this, which already exists, is other preinstalled stores, like Samsung or Amazon stores, by OEMs. What should probably be illegal is making deals forcing OEMs to have exclusive app store deals? I have another store on my phone called "Mi Picks", which was preinstalled. I've never used it. Why would I? The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to, to install a specific app, this is of course the situation on PC where you need to install another store for every game, and this is the only thing that Google made deals to prevent.

ehsankia 3y ago
I'm mostly agreeing with you. Steam definitely has a monopoly of PC gaming, but it's also true that having a single place with all your games and friends is far more convenient. I'm not sure where the right balance is. Are we paying more due to the lack of competition to Valve's 30%? Would more competition be worth the fragmentation? Look at streaming services and the mess that has become. I'm not sure what the answer is.
- georgyo 3y ago
  Steam is a bit of a very special case and I think very different from either Apple or Google stores. Steam is never part of a platform, except for maybe the steam deck, and even there it lets you very easily replace it. Steam will install other stores automatically for you. Does the game need EA's origin or what ever the epic store is called? It will install it as part of playing that game. Users will have multiple stores installed and will continue to choose Steam. In the case of Apple or Google, I'm given a store forcefully. Google let's you jump through hoops to get another store but it isn't easy. To even get Steam, you as a user have to make a very conscious choice to install it. Steam is very much the choice of users and even many developers. Steam is a private company and doesn't seem in the business of ever attempting to screw with or limit users. Hell, Steams development of wine/pronton is the explicit choice to give users more choice. Steam maybe an app store, but IMHO it is definitely not ever forcing anyone to do anything, unlike Apple or Google.
  - amadeuspagel 3y ago
    > In the case of Apple or Google, I'm given a store forcefully. Google let's you jump through hoops to get another store but it isn't easy. Every Samsung and Xiami phone comes with another store.
    - georgyo 3y ago
      I think you missed my point. Even if that is the case, it is still another store that the hardware vendor installed. Most likely uninstallable without rooting the device. Steam does not come preinstalled (except for the steam deck), users choose to install it on platforms they own. Steam is removable from all platforms with minimum fuss. Steam can and will install competing app stores. None of these facts are true on Apple, Google, or other preinstalled mobile app stores.
      - lern_too_spel 3y ago
        > Most likely uninstallable without rooting the device. You can disable them without rooting your device. I just verified.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to, to install a specific app Obvious counterexample: The other store charges 4% instead of 15% or 30% and correspondingly the exact same app is cheaper there.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  Steam charges 30% and is completely dominant on PC, and there's competitor that tries to compete by charging 4%.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    It's common to install PC games without an app store at all. Does the store charging 4% have the same games but for lower prices? Which one would you use if that were the case?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
gear54rus 3y ago
...or when this shitty play store decides that something is not available for my device and/or region for some idiotic reason again
g-b-r 3y ago
> The only reason people would ever use another store is if they were forced to ...or if the default store had terms you'd rather do without...

g-b-r 3y ago

> anything Google does to make it more cohesive will be seen as anti-competitive.. Sure, anything Google does to make it more cohesive... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... https://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-lawsuit-motorola-samsung https://www.theverge.com/2011/05/12/google-android-skyhook-l...

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> That being said, that's also a shitty situation for consumers, as having many or different app stores is confusing and just leads to the very fragmentation people have complain about on Android for a decade. Are people confused because they can choose whether to buy things at Walmart, Target, Amazon or the local convenience store? Is this "fragmentation"? Should we get rid of these others and have only Amazon, so people aren't confused? It's not really that confusing. You can go to any shady website on the internet and give them your credit card number and find out what happens, but people mostly just buy things from stores they trust -- even though there are many of them. Why is this different? (Actual reason: Because the incumbents suppress the other stores so none of them gets popular enough to establish a reputation with the public at large.)

Scion9066 3y ago
Because it might not end up being a choice of which store to get things from like your physical goods example. For the larger apps/those from specific publishers it may likely be a choice of: Meta apps only from the Meta Store, Epic Games apps only from the Epic Games store, etc. And regarding the security aspect: once people expect to download a random app store for every company, they'll be less hesitant to download one that's just malware.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > For the larger apps/those from specific publishers it may likely be a choice of: Meta apps only from the Meta Store, Epic Games apps only from the Epic Games store, etc. That's not really different than anything else. You can only get Great Value brand products from Walmart. But when this happens it's typically because the store and the maker of the product are the same company. Then you don't have to worry about the store having a monopoly because either the product has competitors, and then you can use those, or it doesn't, in which case you're dealing with a monopolist regardless of how many stores you can get it from. But it's not even clear this would happen if there actually was competition between stores, because why does every random company need its own store if there was enough competition between stores that they could just put their app in existing popular stores without having to pay excessive margins or being subject to abusive monopoly practices? > And regarding the security aspect: once people expect to download a random app store for every company, they'll be less hesitant to download one that's just malware. An app store which is just malware would be illegal, and then get removed by court order for being illegal (or cease to exist because the proprietors are in prison). You can allow legitimate competitors without allowing overt criminal activity. The obvious distinction is that who decides what's prohibited is an elected government subject to constitutional restrictions rather than a competitor with a conflict of interest.