14 ms·

Volkswagen Will Bring Back Physical Buttons in New Cars

397 points by ashitlerferad 3y ago

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Not sure they should be over by the pad. Again, I have to reach for them, which means I have to take my eyes off the road to find them.
mgoetzke 3y ago
It might be relevant to know though, that the way VW did their on-screen and on-steering wheel buttons where not state of the art. Glitches, missing feedback, latency etc. Tesla also added more on-wheel capacitive buttons in their Model S refresh and got negative feedback, but they worked on it for the new Model 3 refresh and I only heard a much improved, basically physical button experience. Not to mention their non-existent UI lag on their screen. So if customers only know laggy screens, and weird feeling buttons, maybe it is not always the right way forward to go backward.
- adamjc 3y ago
  The only way to realistically use a non-tactile button is to take your eyes off the road to look at what you need to press. That's the issue, anything else is irrelevant. I'm glad they're going back to physical buttons, I won't buy a car that doesn't have them.
  - the8472 3y ago
    Perhaps we could replace mechanical feedback with tiny electrical shocks. Look ma, no moving parts.
    - simondotau 3y ago
      Apple has had success replacing mechanics with haptics on their trackpads.
      - ListeningPie 3y ago
        My mind is completely fooled by the haptics on my MacBook Pros touchpad, so much nicer than the mushy click that came on windows machine prior.
        simondotau 3y ago
        It's astounding, isn't it. It's not often that you can know exactly how you're being fooled and continue to be fooled anyway. It's magical.
    - malfist 3y ago
      How do you know which button your on without looking?
      - lawn 3y ago
        Because of muscle memory? And well-designed physical buttons have identifiable marks or features on them to help you find the right one purely by touch. The input type (button, dial, lever) shape (round, square edges to the right), dots on the button and location (I change songs in the top left).
        malfist 3y ago
        Not on a touchscreen you don't. Even with electric shocks as GP suggested.
        lawn 3y ago
        Yeah sorry, I was thinking of regular physical buttons.
      - the8472 3y ago
        They prickle differently
taimurkazmi 3y ago
I'm not sure why car manufacturers thought it's a good idea to have essential controls on a touchpad you have to look at to navigate. I mean, shouldn't you be looking at something else when controlling a vehicle?
- rurounijones 3y ago
  Touch screens are cheap and allow for post-release UI modifications.
  - Maakuth 3y ago
    This VW solution really is worst of both worlds, as these are capacitive surfaces with printed symbols. So you cannot really iterate on them post-release.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. And all the do is allowing for lazy development and the release of pre-Beta software if used the way they currently are.
    - ajross 3y ago
      > Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. Oh, come on. It's a laptop panel. It's not "smart", it's just the same display/touchscreen component you can find for $150 on Alibaba or whatever.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        It is decidedly not. First, the environmental conditions, heat, cold, vibrations, sun (just ask Tesla how those cheap non-automotive grade screen did). Second, if the screen is just used to capture input and display atuff, sure it is stupid. A lot aren't so as they include some computing power. But hey, good luck sourcing your parts for serial car manufacture, or anything even remotely serious in a commercial environment, from Alibaba... What's your alternate source of choice, Wish or Temu?
neogodless 3y ago
Previous, related discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 17 hours ago, 211 comments (thedrive.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 1 day ago, 52 comments (afronomist.com)
coev 3y ago
Funny enough, the Taos and Jetta, which are their cheapest models, have physical buttons for volume and climate control and there isn't this level of friction using the car. I have a Taos, so I paid less for a better experience than a GTI or ID4 driver.
- jamincan 3y ago
  I just bought a Taos this past July and the general familiarity of the interior controls (pretty much all buttons) coming from a Mk7 Golf was a big factor in going with it.
TriangleEdge 3y ago
I don't think having physical buttons worked well for BlackBerry. My guess it'll be the same for cars. It'll look and feel vintage, maybe. I rented a car recently that had a physical key that turned in a keyhole, and each time I wanted to use the car, I'd look for the button before I remembered.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I don't think having physical buttons worked well for BlackBerry. Phones aren't 2T vehicles you need to control at speed or you'll kill someone. If you want a paralel form the consumer tech space, look at game consoles. They all use primarily highly tactile physical buttons and switches instead of large touchscreens, because that's best for accurate control using your muscle memory while keeping your eyes focused on the TV where the action happens, instead of looking at the control surfaces. Muscle memory is a very important thing in safe vehicle control of any kind, not just cars. Look at crane or excavator operators. They're also looking out the window at what the hook or scoop is doing instead of at the levers they're pulling.
billpg 3y ago
Good. Can the regular roadworthiness tests be updated to fail cars that don't have physical buttons or dials for essential controls? These cars need taking off the road.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  The cars with aftermarket (now market) LED lamps tilted up also need to go, both are massive safety concerns.
bhpm 3y ago
It’s interesting to me that voice commands never come up in these discussions. Teslas have good voice controls, though they suffer from the typical lack of discoverability that all voice systems do. Also, I think the original intention behind the touch screen was that you would be in auto pilot while using it.
- malfist 3y ago
  Voice commands are awful. They misunderstand you, they require you to memorize a specific syntax to talk to a single car, your other car probably has a different one, and so will your next car. They're horrendously verbose and it takes seven hours to instruct it which address it should navigate to.
  - sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
    I can imagine a near future where voice controls are flexible, personalised, and portable using small LLM models running locally. They would adapt to your style and needs and be sort of like a universal interface to a lot of devices - not sure about cars to be honest but for navigation and similar functionality I imagine they would be pretty good. I am also working on a small personal prototype of this - anyone know if there is a more serious project or company that is getting into this?
  - magicalhippo 3y ago
    Our car, Renault Megane e-Tech, uses Google, which I find works quite well. My SO has trouble finding the right words, and more often than not, the car does what she wants. Though I found it struggles with non-native names, when I try to make calls. But starting navigation, turning off seat heating etc works very well.
    - phatskat 3y ago
      Anecdotal counter-point: my Google home usually understands me (male voice) but either ignores or misinterprets my roommate (female voice). Not sure if it’s the same tech necessarily, nor where the fault lies. But this is across multiple generations of Home/Nest devices, in multiple locations. Not to mention that there’s a 20% chance it misunderstands me with simple commands like “lights on” (so I get random Spotify songs instead).
eimrine 3y ago
(buying a brand new Volkswagen in future) What's in the trunk in a plastic bag? your physical buttons, sir! You can stick them with double-sided tape wherever you want!
metafunctor 3y ago
I absolute prefer proper physical interfaces for the most commonly used things. Like steering, acceleration, breaking, blinking, volume control, door handles, wipers, that sort of things. These are things I would use almost every drive. However, I would prefer to plan my navigation, browse settings, configure the car, and peruse statistics on a nice snappy capacitive display UI. Please do keep/build that.
- sigmoid10 3y ago
  It's really simple: Anything that needs adjustment during driving should be a physical button so I can interact with it without looking away from the road. Especially basic climate and media controls have no business in cascaded touchscreen menus and these things probably have caused countless accidents.
  - metafunctor 3y ago
    I've been driving a new Tesla for the past months, and the on-screen climate and media controls actually don't bother me much at all. Granted, it's not actually a cascaded menu, so maybe I'm not really responding to your argument at all. Which car does have climate controls hidden in a cascaded menu, and not available more easily? In a Tesla, these things are in a predictable place physically and the controls respond quite nicely. I can use the scroll buttons and other buttons on the yoke to control these and various other things without taking my eyes off the traffic. There's even good voice control for things like navigation (“take me home”). However, I've encountered some challenges with the blinker controls, particularly when the yoke isn't upright. I've gotten more accustomed to their placement and can usually find the right spot instinctively, but occasionally, they either don't respond or I press the wrong area. It's a minor but noticeable annoyance. I'm thinking about adding tactile stickers to the wheel to help identify these spots more easily.
    - zelos 3y ago
      > However, I've encountered some challenges with the blinker controls, particularly when the yoke isn't upright. The blinker control placement confused me: how do you change the indicator direction when turning off a roundabout? With a stalk it's just a press down with your little finger, but surely with buttons that move with the wheel it's harder? Or is the yoke on a Tesla so sensitive that you don't turn it far enough round for it to be an issue?
bearcobra 3y ago
I think the ultimate solution will combine touch screens with physical buttons and dials that adapt to different contexts. Ford already has what is effectively a stylus dial and products like the Elgato Stream Deck have basically solved how it could work with regular buttons.
sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
Touchpads are a horrible interface for almost any device - especially ones that can easily kill when there is an operator mistake. God I hate touchpad or touch based controls or whatever the correct term is, even on mobile phones they are almost always terrible to use.
- mihaaly 3y ago
  And many argued that cars could be "improved" further with voice recognition....! Disaster waiting to happen.
- polski-g 3y ago
  Touchpad controls are so bad I've literally never played a game on my phone.
  - idkwhoiam 3y ago
    Same here. I cannot stand using touch interface to do anything other than lightweight web browsing. I found an XBox One wireless controller worked wonders with my iPad for gaming.
    - mihaaly 3y ago
      I avoid restaurants/shops where touchscreen is used for odering food. I simply go elsewhere. Order on a giant screen is both awkward (UIs are tend to be tuned to be flashy rather than functional) and disgusting.
  - dgrin91 3y ago
    I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not
- spinningslate 3y ago
  I'm not big on touchscreens on phones, though it doesn't drive me mad personally. Real estate is a practical limitation and so forces trade-offs. The big difference with a phone/tablet is that you're looking at the screen when using it. That's fundamental to the interaction experience. Cars are _completely_ different: a driver should be looking at *the road*. Touchscreens as the main control interface for cars were a stupifying dumb idea right from the start. It's as if the alphageeks burst through the design studio doors, shunted the ergnonomicists aside, and proclaimed anything physical was neanderthal and out of date. Behold, the emperor has new clothes! "We can do all this in SOFTWARE, and it's adaptable, we can use clever colours, and look if you just tap this menu three times and slide along here, YOU CAN BOOST THE BASS IN THE RIGHT REAR SPEAKER! Show me how you do THAT with your Victorian buttons!". Fair play to Mazda for leading the resistance movement here - and good to see VW actually listening and doing something about it. With any luck, touch screen car control will suffer the ignominious death it deserves.
alkonaut 3y ago
The design in the pic looks reasonable. Big screen for nav, setup, rarely used functions. Then a set buttons with a knob for volume (or other rotary control when in setup mode on the screen) and buttons around it to provide just the minimum functions you need while driving such as defrosters and climate control. You really don't need a lot of physical buttons for a car UX to be safe. And each button shouldn't need a separate cable. That button pad can be the exact sam N buttons for every model, every trim, and regardless of which side the steering wheel is on. The design with "flying" screens in front of the dashboard feels modern but it's of course a cost saving, which can be copied for the button pads. And use a single cable to the button console. I can't see how it's a massive production headache or cost if it's built that way. It's not 1989 you don't need 2 wires per button and 9 buttons for favorite radio stations.
- hdjY28 3y ago
  Ah, the sweet spot between a cockpit and a calculator. You're spot on; we're not trying to relaunch Apollo 13 here. Sure, give us a touchscreen for the tech savvy, but let's not forget the tactile satisfaction of a good ol' button. And yeah, a universal button pad is like the Swiss Army knife of car controls – versatile, yet uncomplicated. Let's keep the touchscreens for Candy Crush and leave driving to the buttons.
  - pmontra 3y ago
    I'm tech savvy but I take physical buttons over touchscreen all the times. I switch radio channels with a wheel on a stick on the steering wheel, change volume with two buttons there. I don't dare using the touchpad for anything complex while driving. Then there is the thing I never understood: we can't use a phone while driving but we can use the touchscreen of the car, which is basically the same thing. Actually I understand why we can't (or we don't want to) piss off car makers and all their money, but yet where is the logic in that from the point of view of safety?
    - jansan 3y ago
      > I'm tech savvy but I take physical buttons over touchscreen all the times. Are you sure? I am all in favor of physical buttons where you need quick access, for example steering wheel and climate control. But touch screens are quite awesome to simplify access to more complicated settings. I hate it when you have four buttons to navigate through nested menus.
deleted 3y ago
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lvl102 3y ago
Wish car manufacturers simply design a place for an ipad and Apple integrates Carplay with it. That’d be my ideal setup. I rather not pay $5,000 (implied) for some infotainment system that will be outdated in two years.
- lakpan 3y ago
  > outdated in two years. More like already out of date. There’s no chance that any system that doesn’t play Spotify is a match with my phone. Or any navigation that isn’t based off Google Maps. And so on. If I have to connect my phone, they already lost.
- Kaibeezy 3y ago
  Some airlines went to free WiFi (limited to streaming local content) and bring-your-own-tablet instead of screens in seatbacks. I’m not sure how that’s worked out, but my sense is it didn’t solve everything. What if car dashboards were BYOD? A standardized API and connector, and you could have a choice of aftermarket UI -- screens, buttons, knobs, whatever. You could get used to it and bring it with you for rentals or to your new car.
kvgr 3y ago
I have a car from VW concern that has touch sensitive temperature and volume. They are absolutely invisible at night.
rsynnott 3y ago
> The automaker has since reverted its since on the steering wheel buttons and is looking to now claw back its reputation for something that its current CEO, Thomas Schäfer, says "did a lot of damage" to the brand. They aren’t even the first car manufacturer to reverse on this. Do these companies not test market these things? Like, I’ve never heard of anyone actually _liking_ these all-touch controls; it’s transparently making things worse to save a few cents.
- brianmcc 3y ago
  I suspect there's an element of snazzy modern screens selling well, but it takes time for the bad feedback about sustained daily usage to accumulate. Personally I'm inclined to write this one up to a confluence of "manufacturers think people want this", and also customers think "I want this" - and reality is now catching up!
  - nottorp 3y ago
    I believe the size of the touch screen in a car is now a marketing measure. Waiting for the 48 inchers.
  - natch 3y ago
    There's also customers think they want this ("this" being the change VW is now planning to give them), which I think is what is really going on here. Later, customers will find out, but by that time, they will already own VWs, so VW will have achieved its goal. Similar pattern to dieselgate in my opinion.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Some things sell really well when new even though once people had the car makers know it was a bad idea. So you see a lot of things put on cars for a while and then when people realize it isn't as good as it looks they get rid of it. Things that people like get put everywhere.
olliebrkr 3y ago
Thank god. I hate cars with touchscreen controls for core functions. I shouldn't have to look away from the screen for more than a minisecond to turn the temperature up a bit or turn up the volume.
- natch 3y ago
  Fortunately, having touchscreen controls doesn't prevent those same controls from being accessible with buttons or voice.
javier_e06 3y ago
The dashboard test: Arrive from a long flight at night at the airport, get a car rental, attempt to operate the buttons to enter the gps address of the hotel and turn on the headlights on before exiting the parking lot. The last time, my 2020 Lexus SUV insisted that I needed to download the Lexus App to my phone before I could access navigation tools in the dashboard. This was a luxury car for chris sake. Cars today are victims of the Nokia feature curse. A bunch of features (calendar, reminders ) that nobody used during the flip-phone era. But you had to have the darn feature in order to compete weather people use it or not.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  This test is now does the car have a screen compatible with CarPlay/Android Auto. I don’t ever want to be entering an address into a car’s infotainment again.
  - sorum 3y ago
    How GM thinks removing CarPlay and Android Auto is a strategically beneficial move, is mind boggling. I literally can't imagine how the reasoning happened, except for some really strong-willed exec with a lot of political power pushed it through. Can't wait for the post-mortem analysis in 10 years.
    - itomato 3y ago
      Instead of working with their software vendor, some VP took their edge case for battery and charge integration as a reason to commit seppuku.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      The terms to car makers for this stuff isn't always nice to car makers. I'm under NDA here so I can't say more.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        That may be true but it's close to a dealbreaker for me and presumably a lot of other people. Not that I'd probably buy a GM vehicle anyway.
sschueller 3y ago
How many people died (this includes pedestrians) because someone tried to adjust their AC in a multi level menu touch screen? The regulators are literally asleep at the wheel and this should have never been permitted for any critical adjustments such as temperature and even audio volume. The hazard button being the only exception is not enough and Tesla turned that into a capacities touch button on the cybertruck making using it with wet hands or gloves impossible. In Switzerland you get fined if you eat while you drive! Having to hunt and take your eyes of the road to adjust the temp is way worse. Now if touch screens had a dynamic 3d surface that you could navigate blindly it would be something else.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > How many people died I don't know, have any? To play devil's advocate, trying to adjust the AC using regular buttons on an unfamiliar rental car can be a nightmare too. Trying to decipher the tiny icons and lights while driving, what magic combination of button presses and knob positions will work? There's an argument to be made that for something like temperature control with its various modes (heat/vent/cold, strength/temperature, fan speed, which combination of vents), a large touchscreen is actually a far superior interface -- easier to see and more intuitive. (Physical touch buttons on the steering wheel for basic adjustments-while-driving like temperature up/down and volume up/down are still important though.)
  - closewith 3y ago
    > There's an argument to be made that for something like temperature control with its various modes (heat/vent/cold, strength/temperature, fan speed, which combination of vents), a large touchscreen is actually a far superior interface -- easier to see and more intuitive. There is no argument. This is a ridiculous idea.
  - hackernewds 3y ago
    you can use one of your senses (touch) while operating the car with another (vision) with physical buttons. I feel like your argument supports better designed physical buttons vs more touch buttons, with zero haptic feedback
maxehmookau 3y ago
I know this irks a lot of people, but I've had a Skoda Enyaq iV for a year or so now and the fact that most of the buttons are on a screen make no difference to me at all. There's physical buttons for the windscreen blowers, and hazard lights and few other critical things. Otherwise, it's just not been an issue for me at all.
seltzered_ 3y ago
It's kinda funny that this piece is written with nothing about all the issues and changes at Cariad, VW's software group having all sorts of issues for years and is been undergoing a reorganization. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38131504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38131504 , and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35851369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35851369 Feels more like PR to encourage improvements are coming.
twoodfin 3y ago
They’ve replaced it since, but I’ve really come to appreciate the control scheme of my 2016 Acura RDX. Two screens, one positioned and angled for touch, one for driver visibility. Physical controls for climate, volume, and accessing touchscreen functions & menus. This doesn’t seem like an incredibly hard problem, but rather that designers (or the marketing folks) have been convinced customers are impressed by extremes. In the ‘90s, dozens of buttons on the steering wheel. Today, nothing but massive screens.
aczerepinski 3y ago
I love my VW GTI and I won’t replace it with an electric car until someone releases something equally good in a similar form factor (hot hatch or close). The physical button UI is a huge part or why I love the car. The mockup here is better than no buttons but not as good as my 2018 car.
NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago
Tactile feedback is essential for fast operation. Touchscreens have done nothing but slow everything down in exchange for ease of use.
dagurp 3y ago
I hope it will be proper buttons then, not whatever they're using in the ID.3. I think all ID owners have opened the rear windows when they mean to open the ones in the front.
usrusr 3y ago
“Dangerous cost-cutting measure not universally loved"
amelius 3y ago
Why is everything in that car curved, except the screens?
lifestyleguru 3y ago
The turning point will be ads displayed in these ridiculous screens. Or not. On top of existing product placement e.g. preinstalled apps, upselling certain subscriptions, premium POIs, etc. If this continues, in 10 years the driver will have only huge screen in front of them and the car will self drive straight away to Shell then to Lidl and the range of the car will be just enough to come back home.
mhb 3y ago
Didn't the CEO and other decision makers try these interfaces before betting the company on them? Are they from a completely different world than the sample here who can see how obviously better physical affordances are?
- nottorp 3y ago
  They don't drive themselves so... It probably even feels fine the first 10 minutes and they're not likely to have more than that scheduled for one test. Have them stuck in traffic for 45 min each morning and afternoon and they'll understand :)
palemoonale 3y ago
Rented a Toyota Vios lately with that horrific tablet-as-HU. Just having to visibly hit the exact volume down 'button (spot) when in need, instead of VERY quickly turning a physical knob down, made me curse them every time.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe] Days of discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853
virtualritz 3y ago
The automotive industry as a whole created one of the biggest UX blunders ever with their IVI systems. If your new smartphone has a different UI, learning that won't put anyone at risk. Not so with the IVI system in a new car. This is so obvious, you can only shake your head in disbelief the current state of affairs ever was allowed to be.
- natch 3y ago
  >This is so obvious, you can only shake your head in disbelief the current state of affairs ever was allowed to be. But a lot of the disbelief and dismay people have is based on them imagining, with horror, things that are not actually the case.
supergeek133 3y ago
This reminds me of the Navy issue years back that caused them to rip out all the touchscreen interfaces. Critical path controls should not be touchscreen.
yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
I didn't notice this in the article, but I wonder if this is only Volkswagen, or if this decision will extend to the rest of VAG. I'm quite disappointed that the new Porsche models have a load of touch screens. I'm a fan of the Cayenne from 2012 which has an interior full of physical buttons and feels a bit like an airplane cockpit.
jugjug 3y ago
Reminds on Rich Hickey ranting about touch screens in cars [1] in Design in Practice: > We do not have feature X" is never a valid problem statement. If you need proof of this you only need to look at a modern car which has a touch screen where no one said, "I need to slide my finger on some random piece of glass to a precise point to set my blower in my car while I am driving." No one has ever said that, right? But somebody did say, "We need touch screens because young people will never buy our cars." This is what happens when you are not talking about the problem. [1]: https://youtu.be/c5QF2HjHLSE?si=M6apr6fG_YaIDOpj&t=1826 https://youtu.be/c5QF2HjHLSE?si=M6apr6fG_YaIDOpj&t=1826
Podgajski 3y ago
There are two cars in my life that I liked more than any other car. The first was my 1965 Corvair and the second was my 1998 Kia Sephia. Today’s car drive you, you don’t drive the car. I sat in a Tesla and felt I was in a future that I didn’t want to be in. Everything physical abstracted away into a smooth curve or a flat screen. we have let middlemen come between us in reality and we’re going to pay for it whether it’s in more expensive repairs or dislocation from nature.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
BMW had this solved in 2003 with their central wheel interface But they are not a hot California startup speaking at TEDx about how they will change the world so they must be in the wrong.
ho_schi 3y ago
Endlich. Four years after Mazda. But the video still shows big touchscreens, useless themes and distractions of the driver. Why they mount office monitors on the cockpit instead of building them into the cockpit? I count 9 buttons. No distinct knobs for volume or temperature. Again One button, one function. Not two functions, no long pressing, half pressing or whatever bad user interface ideas somebody can have. Donald A. Norman explained that well in The design of everyday things. And group that stuff logically.
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4bpp 3y ago
There seems to be a whole genre of announcements from corporations and politicians where they partially backtrack on some all around terrible change while congratulating themselves on listening to their customers (with a clear undertone of bitterness about this being the case). I can understand (without being particularly happy about) politicians having their own agenda that does not align with the majority of voters, but why is it that vendors producing widgets are so strong-willed about certain details? Why won't any car manufacturer make a car with no touchscreens except perhaps for a satnav that has no data link to the rest of the car electronics at all, or any laptop manufacturer make a laptop with non-chiclet keys (in the style of pre-x230 thinkpads)? Surely there would be a deeply underserved customer base to capture in both cases; one could really get the sense that corporations feel that satisfying those customers would be downright immoral.
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tradevapp 3y ago
Good! I miss the clicky knobs in my car. I don't mind touch controls when they're always on the same place and don't require navigating submenus.
kgwxd 3y ago
Touch screens, DRM, and subscription based upgrades need to die ASAP.
itslennysfault 3y ago
AWESOME!! Physical buttons are great. A while back I was considering buying a Tesla, but I rented a Model X for a long trip and overall found it pretty enjoyable. However, I found their heavy reliance on touch interface pretty annoying, and did a much deeper dive into other EVs as a result.
- ubermonkey 3y ago
  Yeah, the no-buttons and no-Carplay thing completely DQs a Tesla for me.
  - natch 3y ago
    No buttons, lol. This is a common misunderstanding. Teslas have just the right number of buttons, and that number is not zero.
    - itslennysfault 3y ago
      Nah, seriously lacking in the button (and knob) department. I want a volume knob for my stereo and I want physical controls for my HVAC at minimum. There were several other things (I can't remember off-hand) that were buried in menus somewhere that frustrated me enough during the week I was renting the Model X to completely cross it off my list of cars.
      - natch 3y ago
        The volume knob for your stereo is right under your thumb when you are holding the steering wheel. The HVAC has auto mode but if you want a physical button you can assign steering wheel buttons to it as well. Sometimes it's just a user knowledge issue.
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m3kw9 3y ago
A touch UI is actually always trying to simulate physical controls, it’s only better because you can have many controls in a small area but you need a lot more focus/brain to use the UI. Physical buttons are ideal still and as proven for cars
- ralmidani 3y ago
  Even the small area argument is questionable; yes, cars these days have more functionality than they did in 1993, but the center console has also gotten progressively larger.
titzer 3y ago
What kills me is that we've known how to make UIs usable in human control situations for 4+ decades and this new generation of UX designers just ignore it. Look at the cockpit of an F-16 or F-22. Digital LCD displays ringed by physical buttons. Car UIs used to work like this, when they first introduced screens. But the wider point is that we keep doing this over and over again, forgetting the lessons of the past, prioritizing flashy and less usable UI over ugly and usable because it's either cheaper or more convenient for the people making UIs, or it's the zeitgeist and it's all they know.
- stavros 3y ago
  I love my 2014 Mercedes A-class. There's a screen and a joystick, and the controls never wrap around the elements. This means that I can press up/left a bunch of times without looking, and be sure I've ended up at a known point. From there, I can operate anything blind.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Original iPod was similar, still prefer that over any modern music player.
    - stavros 3y ago
      Exactly, that UX was perfect.
- damnesian 3y ago
  Cheap, convenient, but also law of similarity. We are so smartphone focused now, practically on the species level, if people see a touchscreen, it's an interface they truly understand, it must be the cause of a perceivable sales bump.
  - epicide 3y ago
    You're alluding to the benefits of building interfaces to what people are already familiar with, but touchscreens are still a learned behavior. There is nothing about our physiology that affords anything with a touchscreen beyond touching it. Touchscreens add flexibility (and lower production costs), but that flexibility comes at a cost. There is no universally agreed-upon usage for them. Certainly not to the degree that "[all] people" understand them the same way. It's all too common to run into a touchscreen-based interface that you haven't seen before and simply not realize you were meant to drag that one element, tap another, or long-press something. Discoverability can be useful, but that quickly loses its value when operating a vehicle -- at least beyond its entertainment system. Buttons, knobs, wheels, sliders, and levers all have physical characteristics that signal some use. Keep in mind that those can also be (ab)used incorrectly! For example, imagine a knob that you shouldn't turn but must push or pull only. Or perhaps a button that you must twist.
haspok 3y ago
The members of the business committee who decided that to operate the 4 windows 2 buttons are enough should be sentenced to driving a Trabant in their remaining lives. What were they thinking?... Of course, it was a desperate cost saving measure. No engineer could have come up with that stupid an idea.
globular-toast 3y ago
I thought for the longest time that touch controls were a misguided attempt by manufacturers to do something "cool" because buttons are considered "boring". But I've come to realise they are doing it simply because it's cheaper. I'm sad that most electronics I've bought in the past few years have touch buttons. In all cases I wish they were real buttons. There are very few actual advantages, apart from it being cheaper.
Justsignedup 3y ago
Buttons are great. But also critical is software. On my old prius there was one knob for temperature, and you push it sideways to change temp, intensity, mode, etc, and that sucks during driving. I am very happy my Mazda has dedicated single-function physical buttons, and it'll automatically switch to the mode you're thinking of when you press a button. The tablet control via physical button is amazing compared to touch screen, takes a minute to get used to, but far far far far far far far less distracting when driving than a touchscreen.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
chaoticmass 3y ago
I bought a 2011 4runner last year and one thing I really like about it is the lack of a big infotainment touch screen. Lots of physical buttons.
ralmidani 3y ago
I’m really not against touchscreens, but cramming more and more functionality into them, indiscriminately, is deplorable and just not good UX/UI. I’m very far from being a usability expert, but I think a good rule of thumb would be putting less-essential __digital__ functions like maps and audio in the touchscreen, but essential __mechanical__ functions like climate control (which includes seat heating/ventilation) be controlled by physical buttons, switches, sliders, and/or knobs. This makes it more intuitive and also more safe to control frequently-modified functionality while keeping eyes on the road. I believe this is an essential safety issue, and it’s infuriating that companies with billions of dollars in resources and, presumably, lots of engineers and designers and usability experts with concerns that are probably ignored. Especially as cars continue to include more headline safety features (i.e. used to sell and even upsell) which are far more expensive than the components they’re skimping on. It’s very petty and irresponsible. The US government has more or less abdicated its responsibility to keep corporate greed in check. Hopefully, the EU will step in and fill that void.
93po 3y ago
I've recently been having to drive a higher end Audi from maybe... 2008? And the physical button situation is a complete fucking mess and I hate it. While driving I was trying to find the way to turn off the AC entirely because I was fed up with it being too hard to control and it took me literally 15 seconds to find it (mostly due to also driving at the same time). The UI (if you can call it that) of physical buttons is complete garbage in most cars. My daily, when I'm home, is a Yaris with three huge physical knobs - temperature, fan speed, and vent choice. It's perfect, I get exactly what I want, I don't physically have to look at it at all, I don't have to deal with automatic climate control which sucks in every single car. I'm just venting and have no real point here I guess other than physical controls suck unless it's super basic and simple.
septune 3y ago
I am curious as to the timeframe within which SpaceX will endeavor to emulate this accomplishment.
honto_jack 3y ago
[dead]
gdilla 3y ago
I hope it's not too late to see a new manual car with buttons and knobs. I think it might be. The latest golf R coulda been a true great if not for the dumb haptics.
ListeningPie 3y ago
The next obvious improvement to undo is open office spaces and bring back small offices or cubicles.

397 points by ashitlerferad 3y ago

Not sure they should be over by the pad. Again, I have to reach for them, which means I have to take my eyes off the road to find them.

mgoetzke 3y ago

It might be relevant to know though, that the way VW did their on-screen and on-steering wheel buttons where not state of the art. Glitches, missing feedback, latency etc. Tesla also added more on-wheel capacitive buttons in their Model S refresh and got negative feedback, but they worked on it for the new Model 3 refresh and I only heard a much improved, basically physical button experience. Not to mention their non-existent UI lag on their screen. So if customers only know laggy screens, and weird feeling buttons, maybe it is not always the right way forward to go backward.

adamjc 3y ago
The only way to realistically use a non-tactile button is to take your eyes off the road to look at what you need to press. That's the issue, anything else is irrelevant. I'm glad they're going back to physical buttons, I won't buy a car that doesn't have them.
- the8472 3y ago
  Perhaps we could replace mechanical feedback with tiny electrical shocks. Look ma, no moving parts.
  - simondotau 3y ago
    Apple has had success replacing mechanics with haptics on their trackpads.
    - ListeningPie 3y ago
      My mind is completely fooled by the haptics on my MacBook Pros touchpad, so much nicer than the mushy click that came on windows machine prior.
      - simondotau 3y ago
        It's astounding, isn't it. It's not often that you can know exactly how you're being fooled and continue to be fooled anyway. It's magical.
  - malfist 3y ago
    How do you know which button your on without looking?
    - lawn 3y ago
      Because of muscle memory? And well-designed physical buttons have identifiable marks or features on them to help you find the right one purely by touch. The input type (button, dial, lever) shape (round, square edges to the right), dots on the button and location (I change songs in the top left).
      - malfist 3y ago
        Not on a touchscreen you don't. Even with electric shocks as GP suggested.
        lawn 3y ago
        Yeah sorry, I was thinking of regular physical buttons.
    - the8472 3y ago
      They prickle differently

taimurkazmi 3y ago

I'm not sure why car manufacturers thought it's a good idea to have essential controls on a touchpad you have to look at to navigate. I mean, shouldn't you be looking at something else when controlling a vehicle?

rurounijones 3y ago
Touch screens are cheap and allow for post-release UI modifications.
- Maakuth 3y ago
  This VW solution really is worst of both worlds, as these are capacitive surfaces with printed symbols. So you cannot really iterate on them post-release.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. And all the do is allowing for lazy development and the release of pre-Beta software if used the way they currently are.
  - ajross 3y ago
    > Automotive grade, smart touch screens are not that cheap. Oh, come on. It's a laptop panel. It's not "smart", it's just the same display/touchscreen component you can find for $150 on Alibaba or whatever.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      It is decidedly not. First, the environmental conditions, heat, cold, vibrations, sun (just ask Tesla how those cheap non-automotive grade screen did). Second, if the screen is just used to capture input and display atuff, sure it is stupid. A lot aren't so as they include some computing power. But hey, good luck sourcing your parts for serial car manufacture, or anything even remotely serious in a commercial environment, from Alibaba... What's your alternate source of choice, Wish or Temu?

neogodless 3y ago

Previous, related discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 17 hours ago, 211 comments (thedrive.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 1 day ago, 52 comments (afronomist.com)

coev 3y ago

Funny enough, the Taos and Jetta, which are their cheapest models, have physical buttons for volume and climate control and there isn't this level of friction using the car. I have a Taos, so I paid less for a better experience than a GTI or ID4 driver.

jamincan 3y ago
I just bought a Taos this past July and the general familiarity of the interior controls (pretty much all buttons) coming from a Mk7 Golf was a big factor in going with it.

TriangleEdge 3y ago

I don't think having physical buttons worked well for BlackBerry. My guess it'll be the same for cars. It'll look and feel vintage, maybe. I rented a car recently that had a physical key that turned in a keyhole, and each time I wanted to use the car, I'd look for the button before I remembered.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>I don't think having physical buttons worked well for BlackBerry. Phones aren't 2T vehicles you need to control at speed or you'll kill someone. If you want a paralel form the consumer tech space, look at game consoles. They all use primarily highly tactile physical buttons and switches instead of large touchscreens, because that's best for accurate control using your muscle memory while keeping your eyes focused on the TV where the action happens, instead of looking at the control surfaces. Muscle memory is a very important thing in safe vehicle control of any kind, not just cars. Look at crane or excavator operators. They're also looking out the window at what the hook or scoop is doing instead of at the levers they're pulling.

billpg 3y ago

Good. Can the regular roadworthiness tests be updated to fail cars that don't have physical buttons or dials for essential controls? These cars need taking off the road.

plagiarist 3y ago
The cars with aftermarket (now market) LED lamps tilted up also need to go, both are massive safety concerns.

bhpm 3y ago

It’s interesting to me that voice commands never come up in these discussions. Teslas have good voice controls, though they suffer from the typical lack of discoverability that all voice systems do. Also, I think the original intention behind the touch screen was that you would be in auto pilot while using it.

malfist 3y ago
Voice commands are awful. They misunderstand you, they require you to memorize a specific syntax to talk to a single car, your other car probably has a different one, and so will your next car. They're horrendously verbose and it takes seven hours to instruct it which address it should navigate to.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  I can imagine a near future where voice controls are flexible, personalised, and portable using small LLM models running locally. They would adapt to your style and needs and be sort of like a universal interface to a lot of devices - not sure about cars to be honest but for navigation and similar functionality I imagine they would be pretty good. I am also working on a small personal prototype of this - anyone know if there is a more serious project or company that is getting into this?
- magicalhippo 3y ago
  Our car, Renault Megane e-Tech, uses Google, which I find works quite well. My SO has trouble finding the right words, and more often than not, the car does what she wants. Though I found it struggles with non-native names, when I try to make calls. But starting navigation, turning off seat heating etc works very well.
  - phatskat 3y ago
    Anecdotal counter-point: my Google home usually understands me (male voice) but either ignores or misinterprets my roommate (female voice). Not sure if it’s the same tech necessarily, nor where the fault lies. But this is across multiple generations of Home/Nest devices, in multiple locations. Not to mention that there’s a 20% chance it misunderstands me with simple commands like “lights on” (so I get random Spotify songs instead).

eimrine 3y ago

(buying a brand new Volkswagen in future) What's in the trunk in a plastic bag? your physical buttons, sir! You can stick them with double-sided tape wherever you want!

metafunctor 3y ago

I absolute prefer proper physical interfaces for the most commonly used things. Like steering, acceleration, breaking, blinking, volume control, door handles, wipers, that sort of things. These are things I would use almost every drive. However, I would prefer to plan my navigation, browse settings, configure the car, and peruse statistics on a nice snappy capacitive display UI. Please do keep/build that.

sigmoid10 3y ago
It's really simple: Anything that needs adjustment during driving should be a physical button so I can interact with it without looking away from the road. Especially basic climate and media controls have no business in cascaded touchscreen menus and these things probably have caused countless accidents.
- metafunctor 3y ago
  I've been driving a new Tesla for the past months, and the on-screen climate and media controls actually don't bother me much at all. Granted, it's not actually a cascaded menu, so maybe I'm not really responding to your argument at all. Which car does have climate controls hidden in a cascaded menu, and not available more easily? In a Tesla, these things are in a predictable place physically and the controls respond quite nicely. I can use the scroll buttons and other buttons on the yoke to control these and various other things without taking my eyes off the traffic. There's even good voice control for things like navigation (“take me home”). However, I've encountered some challenges with the blinker controls, particularly when the yoke isn't upright. I've gotten more accustomed to their placement and can usually find the right spot instinctively, but occasionally, they either don't respond or I press the wrong area. It's a minor but noticeable annoyance. I'm thinking about adding tactile stickers to the wheel to help identify these spots more easily.
  - zelos 3y ago
    > However, I've encountered some challenges with the blinker controls, particularly when the yoke isn't upright. The blinker control placement confused me: how do you change the indicator direction when turning off a roundabout? With a stalk it's just a press down with your little finger, but surely with buttons that move with the wheel it's harder? Or is the yoke on a Tesla so sensitive that you don't turn it far enough round for it to be an issue?

bearcobra 3y ago

I think the ultimate solution will combine touch screens with physical buttons and dials that adapt to different contexts. Ford already has what is effectively a stylus dial and products like the Elgato Stream Deck have basically solved how it could work with regular buttons.

sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago

Touchpads are a horrible interface for almost any device - especially ones that can easily kill when there is an operator mistake. God I hate touchpad or touch based controls or whatever the correct term is, even on mobile phones they are almost always terrible to use.

mihaaly 3y ago
And many argued that cars could be "improved" further with voice recognition....! Disaster waiting to happen.
polski-g 3y ago
Touchpad controls are so bad I've literally never played a game on my phone.
- idkwhoiam 3y ago
  Same here. I cannot stand using touch interface to do anything other than lightweight web browsing. I found an XBox One wireless controller worked wonders with my iPad for gaming.
  - mihaaly 3y ago
    I avoid restaurants/shops where touchscreen is used for odering food. I simply go elsewhere. Order on a giant screen is both awkward (UIs are tend to be tuned to be flashy rather than functional) and disgusting.
- dgrin91 3y ago
  I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not
spinningslate 3y ago
I'm not big on touchscreens on phones, though it doesn't drive me mad personally. Real estate is a practical limitation and so forces trade-offs. The big difference with a phone/tablet is that you're looking at the screen when using it. That's fundamental to the interaction experience. Cars are _completely_ different: a driver should be looking at *the road*. Touchscreens as the main control interface for cars were a stupifying dumb idea right from the start. It's as if the alphageeks burst through the design studio doors, shunted the ergnonomicists aside, and proclaimed anything physical was neanderthal and out of date. Behold, the emperor has new clothes! "We can do all this in SOFTWARE, and it's adaptable, we can use clever colours, and look if you just tap this menu three times and slide along here, YOU CAN BOOST THE BASS IN THE RIGHT REAR SPEAKER! Show me how you do THAT with your Victorian buttons!". Fair play to Mazda for leading the resistance movement here - and good to see VW actually listening and doing something about it. With any luck, touch screen car control will suffer the ignominious death it deserves.

alkonaut 3y ago

The design in the pic looks reasonable. Big screen for nav, setup, rarely used functions. Then a set buttons with a knob for volume (or other rotary control when in setup mode on the screen) and buttons around it to provide just the minimum functions you need while driving such as defrosters and climate control. You really don't need a lot of physical buttons for a car UX to be safe. And each button shouldn't need a separate cable. That button pad can be the exact sam N buttons for every model, every trim, and regardless of which side the steering wheel is on. The design with "flying" screens in front of the dashboard feels modern but it's of course a cost saving, which can be copied for the button pads. And use a single cable to the button console. I can't see how it's a massive production headache or cost if it's built that way. It's not 1989 you don't need 2 wires per button and 9 buttons for favorite radio stations.

hdjY28 3y ago
Ah, the sweet spot between a cockpit and a calculator. You're spot on; we're not trying to relaunch Apollo 13 here. Sure, give us a touchscreen for the tech savvy, but let's not forget the tactile satisfaction of a good ol' button. And yeah, a universal button pad is like the Swiss Army knife of car controls – versatile, yet uncomplicated. Let's keep the touchscreens for Candy Crush and leave driving to the buttons.
- pmontra 3y ago
  I'm tech savvy but I take physical buttons over touchscreen all the times. I switch radio channels with a wheel on a stick on the steering wheel, change volume with two buttons there. I don't dare using the touchpad for anything complex while driving. Then there is the thing I never understood: we can't use a phone while driving but we can use the touchscreen of the car, which is basically the same thing. Actually I understand why we can't (or we don't want to) piss off car makers and all their money, but yet where is the logic in that from the point of view of safety?
  - jansan 3y ago
    > I'm tech savvy but I take physical buttons over touchscreen all the times. Are you sure? I am all in favor of physical buttons where you need quick access, for example steering wheel and climate control. But touch screens are quite awesome to simplify access to more complicated settings. I hate it when you have four buttons to navigate through nested menus.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

lvl102 3y ago

Wish car manufacturers simply design a place for an ipad and Apple integrates Carplay with it. That’d be my ideal setup. I rather not pay $5,000 (implied) for some infotainment system that will be outdated in two years.

lakpan 3y ago
> outdated in two years. More like already out of date. There’s no chance that any system that doesn’t play Spotify is a match with my phone. Or any navigation that isn’t based off Google Maps. And so on. If I have to connect my phone, they already lost.
Kaibeezy 3y ago
Some airlines went to free WiFi (limited to streaming local content) and bring-your-own-tablet instead of screens in seatbacks. I’m not sure how that’s worked out, but my sense is it didn’t solve everything. What if car dashboards were BYOD? A standardized API and connector, and you could have a choice of aftermarket UI -- screens, buttons, knobs, whatever. You could get used to it and bring it with you for rentals or to your new car.

kvgr 3y ago

I have a car from VW concern that has touch sensitive temperature and volume. They are absolutely invisible at night.

rsynnott 3y ago

> The automaker has since reverted its since on the steering wheel buttons and is looking to now claw back its reputation for something that its current CEO, Thomas Schäfer, says "did a lot of damage" to the brand. They aren’t even the first car manufacturer to reverse on this. Do these companies not test market these things? Like, I’ve never heard of anyone actually _liking_ these all-touch controls; it’s transparently making things worse to save a few cents.

brianmcc 3y ago
I suspect there's an element of snazzy modern screens selling well, but it takes time for the bad feedback about sustained daily usage to accumulate. Personally I'm inclined to write this one up to a confluence of "manufacturers think people want this", and also customers think "I want this" - and reality is now catching up!
- nottorp 3y ago
  I believe the size of the touch screen in a car is now a marketing measure. Waiting for the 48 inchers.
- natch 3y ago
  There's also customers think they want this ("this" being the change VW is now planning to give them), which I think is what is really going on here. Later, customers will find out, but by that time, they will already own VWs, so VW will have achieved its goal. Similar pattern to dieselgate in my opinion.
bluGill 3y ago
Some things sell really well when new even though once people had the car makers know it was a bad idea. So you see a lot of things put on cars for a while and then when people realize it isn't as good as it looks they get rid of it. Things that people like get put everywhere.

olliebrkr 3y ago

Thank god. I hate cars with touchscreen controls for core functions. I shouldn't have to look away from the screen for more than a minisecond to turn the temperature up a bit or turn up the volume.

natch 3y ago
Fortunately, having touchscreen controls doesn't prevent those same controls from being accessible with buttons or voice.

javier_e06 3y ago

The dashboard test: Arrive from a long flight at night at the airport, get a car rental, attempt to operate the buttons to enter the gps address of the hotel and turn on the headlights on before exiting the parking lot. The last time, my 2020 Lexus SUV insisted that I needed to download the Lexus App to my phone before I could access navigation tools in the dashboard. This was a luxury car for chris sake. Cars today are victims of the Nokia feature curse. A bunch of features (calendar, reminders ) that nobody used during the flip-phone era. But you had to have the darn feature in order to compete weather people use it or not.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
This test is now does the car have a screen compatible with CarPlay/Android Auto. I don’t ever want to be entering an address into a car’s infotainment again.
- sorum 3y ago
  How GM thinks removing CarPlay and Android Auto is a strategically beneficial move, is mind boggling. I literally can't imagine how the reasoning happened, except for some really strong-willed exec with a lot of political power pushed it through. Can't wait for the post-mortem analysis in 10 years.
  - itomato 3y ago
    Instead of working with their software vendor, some VP took their edge case for battery and charge integration as a reason to commit seppuku.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    The terms to car makers for this stuff isn't always nice to car makers. I'm under NDA here so I can't say more.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      That may be true but it's close to a dealbreaker for me and presumably a lot of other people. Not that I'd probably buy a GM vehicle anyway.

sschueller 3y ago

How many people died (this includes pedestrians) because someone tried to adjust their AC in a multi level menu touch screen? The regulators are literally asleep at the wheel and this should have never been permitted for any critical adjustments such as temperature and even audio volume. The hazard button being the only exception is not enough and Tesla turned that into a capacities touch button on the cybertruck making using it with wet hands or gloves impossible. In Switzerland you get fined if you eat while you drive! Having to hunt and take your eyes of the road to adjust the temp is way worse. Now if touch screens had a dynamic 3d surface that you could navigate blindly it would be something else.

crazygringo 3y ago
> How many people died I don't know, have any? To play devil's advocate, trying to adjust the AC using regular buttons on an unfamiliar rental car can be a nightmare too. Trying to decipher the tiny icons and lights while driving, what magic combination of button presses and knob positions will work? There's an argument to be made that for something like temperature control with its various modes (heat/vent/cold, strength/temperature, fan speed, which combination of vents), a large touchscreen is actually a far superior interface -- easier to see and more intuitive. (Physical touch buttons on the steering wheel for basic adjustments-while-driving like temperature up/down and volume up/down are still important though.)
- closewith 3y ago
  > There's an argument to be made that for something like temperature control with its various modes (heat/vent/cold, strength/temperature, fan speed, which combination of vents), a large touchscreen is actually a far superior interface -- easier to see and more intuitive. There is no argument. This is a ridiculous idea.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  you can use one of your senses (touch) while operating the car with another (vision) with physical buttons. I feel like your argument supports better designed physical buttons vs more touch buttons, with zero haptic feedback

maxehmookau 3y ago

I know this irks a lot of people, but I've had a Skoda Enyaq iV for a year or so now and the fact that most of the buttons are on a screen make no difference to me at all. There's physical buttons for the windscreen blowers, and hazard lights and few other critical things. Otherwise, it's just not been an issue for me at all.

seltzered_ 3y ago

It's kinda funny that this piece is written with nothing about all the issues and changes at Cariad, VW's software group having all sorts of issues for years and is been undergoing a reorganization. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38131504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38131504 , and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35851369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35851369 Feels more like PR to encourage improvements are coming.

twoodfin 3y ago

They’ve replaced it since, but I’ve really come to appreciate the control scheme of my 2016 Acura RDX. Two screens, one positioned and angled for touch, one for driver visibility. Physical controls for climate, volume, and accessing touchscreen functions & menus. This doesn’t seem like an incredibly hard problem, but rather that designers (or the marketing folks) have been convinced customers are impressed by extremes. In the ‘90s, dozens of buttons on the steering wheel. Today, nothing but massive screens.

aczerepinski 3y ago

I love my VW GTI and I won’t replace it with an electric car until someone releases something equally good in a similar form factor (hot hatch or close). The physical button UI is a huge part or why I love the car. The mockup here is better than no buttons but not as good as my 2018 car.

NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago

Tactile feedback is essential for fast operation. Touchscreens have done nothing but slow everything down in exchange for ease of use.

dagurp 3y ago

I hope it will be proper buttons then, not whatever they're using in the ID.3. I think all ID owners have opened the rear windows when they mean to open the ones in the front.

usrusr 3y ago

“Dangerous cost-cutting measure not universally loved"

amelius 3y ago

Why is everything in that car curved, except the screens?

lifestyleguru 3y ago

The turning point will be ads displayed in these ridiculous screens. Or not. On top of existing product placement e.g. preinstalled apps, upselling certain subscriptions, premium POIs, etc. If this continues, in 10 years the driver will have only huge screen in front of them and the car will self drive straight away to Shell then to Lidl and the range of the car will be just enough to come back home.

mhb 3y ago

Didn't the CEO and other decision makers try these interfaces before betting the company on them? Are they from a completely different world than the sample here who can see how obviously better physical affordances are?

nottorp 3y ago
They don't drive themselves so... It probably even feels fine the first 10 minutes and they're not likely to have more than that scheduled for one test. Have them stuck in traffic for 45 min each morning and afternoon and they'll understand :)

palemoonale 3y ago

Rented a Toyota Vios lately with that horrific tablet-as-HU. Just having to visibly hit the exact volume down 'button (spot) when in need, instead of VERY quickly turning a physical knob down, made me curse them every time.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe] Days of discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38686967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38678853

virtualritz 3y ago

The automotive industry as a whole created one of the biggest UX blunders ever with their IVI systems. If your new smartphone has a different UI, learning that won't put anyone at risk. Not so with the IVI system in a new car. This is so obvious, you can only shake your head in disbelief the current state of affairs ever was allowed to be.

natch 3y ago
>This is so obvious, you can only shake your head in disbelief the current state of affairs ever was allowed to be. But a lot of the disbelief and dismay people have is based on them imagining, with horror, things that are not actually the case.

supergeek133 3y ago

This reminds me of the Navy issue years back that caused them to rip out all the touchscreen interfaces. Critical path controls should not be touchscreen.

yakshaving_jgt 3y ago

I didn't notice this in the article, but I wonder if this is only Volkswagen, or if this decision will extend to the rest of VAG. I'm quite disappointed that the new Porsche models have a load of touch screens. I'm a fan of the Cayenne from 2012 which has an interior full of physical buttons and feels a bit like an airplane cockpit.

jugjug 3y ago

Reminds on Rich Hickey ranting about touch screens in cars [1] in Design in Practice: > We do not have feature X" is never a valid problem statement. If you need proof of this you only need to look at a modern car which has a touch screen where no one said, "I need to slide my finger on some random piece of glass to a precise point to set my blower in my car while I am driving." No one has ever said that, right? But somebody did say, "We need touch screens because young people will never buy our cars." This is what happens when you are not talking about the problem. [1]: https://youtu.be/c5QF2HjHLSE?si=M6apr6fG_YaIDOpj&t=1826 https://youtu.be/c5QF2HjHLSE?si=M6apr6fG_YaIDOpj&t=1826

Podgajski 3y ago

There are two cars in my life that I liked more than any other car. The first was my 1965 Corvair and the second was my 1998 Kia Sephia. Today’s car drive you, you don’t drive the car. I sat in a Tesla and felt I was in a future that I didn’t want to be in. Everything physical abstracted away into a smooth curve or a flat screen. we have let middlemen come between us in reality and we’re going to pay for it whether it’s in more expensive repairs or dislocation from nature.

JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago

BMW had this solved in 2003 with their central wheel interface But they are not a hot California startup speaking at TEDx about how they will change the world so they must be in the wrong.

ho_schi 3y ago

Endlich. Four years after Mazda. But the video still shows big touchscreens, useless themes and distractions of the driver. Why they mount office monitors on the cockpit instead of building them into the cockpit? I count 9 buttons. No distinct knobs for volume or temperature. Again One button, one function. Not two functions, no long pressing, half pressing or whatever bad user interface ideas somebody can have. Donald A. Norman explained that well in The design of everyday things. And group that stuff logically.

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4bpp 3y ago

There seems to be a whole genre of announcements from corporations and politicians where they partially backtrack on some all around terrible change while congratulating themselves on listening to their customers (with a clear undertone of bitterness about this being the case). I can understand (without being particularly happy about) politicians having their own agenda that does not align with the majority of voters, but why is it that vendors producing widgets are so strong-willed about certain details? Why won't any car manufacturer make a car with no touchscreens except perhaps for a satnav that has no data link to the rest of the car electronics at all, or any laptop manufacturer make a laptop with non-chiclet keys (in the style of pre-x230 thinkpads)? Surely there would be a deeply underserved customer base to capture in both cases; one could really get the sense that corporations feel that satisfying those customers would be downright immoral.

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tradevapp 3y ago

Good! I miss the clicky knobs in my car. I don't mind touch controls when they're always on the same place and don't require navigating submenus.

kgwxd 3y ago

Touch screens, DRM, and subscription based upgrades need to die ASAP.

itslennysfault 3y ago

AWESOME!! Physical buttons are great. A while back I was considering buying a Tesla, but I rented a Model X for a long trip and overall found it pretty enjoyable. However, I found their heavy reliance on touch interface pretty annoying, and did a much deeper dive into other EVs as a result.

ubermonkey 3y ago
Yeah, the no-buttons and no-Carplay thing completely DQs a Tesla for me.
- natch 3y ago
  No buttons, lol. This is a common misunderstanding. Teslas have just the right number of buttons, and that number is not zero.
  - itslennysfault 3y ago
    Nah, seriously lacking in the button (and knob) department. I want a volume knob for my stereo and I want physical controls for my HVAC at minimum. There were several other things (I can't remember off-hand) that were buried in menus somewhere that frustrated me enough during the week I was renting the Model X to completely cross it off my list of cars.
    - natch 3y ago
      The volume knob for your stereo is right under your thumb when you are holding the steering wheel. The HVAC has auto mode but if you want a physical button you can assign steering wheel buttons to it as well. Sometimes it's just a user knowledge issue.
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m3kw9 3y ago

A touch UI is actually always trying to simulate physical controls, it’s only better because you can have many controls in a small area but you need a lot more focus/brain to use the UI. Physical buttons are ideal still and as proven for cars

ralmidani 3y ago
Even the small area argument is questionable; yes, cars these days have more functionality than they did in 1993, but the center console has also gotten progressively larger.

titzer 3y ago

What kills me is that we've known how to make UIs usable in human control situations for 4+ decades and this new generation of UX designers just ignore it. Look at the cockpit of an F-16 or F-22. Digital LCD displays ringed by physical buttons. Car UIs used to work like this, when they first introduced screens. But the wider point is that we keep doing this over and over again, forgetting the lessons of the past, prioritizing flashy and less usable UI over ugly and usable because it's either cheaper or more convenient for the people making UIs, or it's the zeitgeist and it's all they know.

stavros 3y ago
I love my 2014 Mercedes A-class. There's a screen and a joystick, and the controls never wrap around the elements. This means that I can press up/left a bunch of times without looking, and be sure I've ended up at a known point. From there, I can operate anything blind.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Original iPod was similar, still prefer that over any modern music player.
  - stavros 3y ago
    Exactly, that UX was perfect.
damnesian 3y ago
Cheap, convenient, but also law of similarity. We are so smartphone focused now, practically on the species level, if people see a touchscreen, it's an interface they truly understand, it must be the cause of a perceivable sales bump.
- epicide 3y ago
  You're alluding to the benefits of building interfaces to what people are already familiar with, but touchscreens are still a learned behavior. There is nothing about our physiology that affords anything with a touchscreen beyond touching it. Touchscreens add flexibility (and lower production costs), but that flexibility comes at a cost. There is no universally agreed-upon usage for them. Certainly not to the degree that "[all] people" understand them the same way. It's all too common to run into a touchscreen-based interface that you haven't seen before and simply not realize you were meant to drag that one element, tap another, or long-press something. Discoverability can be useful, but that quickly loses its value when operating a vehicle -- at least beyond its entertainment system. Buttons, knobs, wheels, sliders, and levers all have physical characteristics that signal some use. Keep in mind that those can also be (ab)used incorrectly! For example, imagine a knob that you shouldn't turn but must push or pull only. Or perhaps a button that you must twist.

haspok 3y ago

The members of the business committee who decided that to operate the 4 windows 2 buttons are enough should be sentenced to driving a Trabant in their remaining lives. What were they thinking?... Of course, it was a desperate cost saving measure. No engineer could have come up with that stupid an idea.

globular-toast 3y ago

I thought for the longest time that touch controls were a misguided attempt by manufacturers to do something "cool" because buttons are considered "boring". But I've come to realise they are doing it simply because it's cheaper. I'm sad that most electronics I've bought in the past few years have touch buttons. In all cases I wish they were real buttons. There are very few actual advantages, apart from it being cheaper.

Justsignedup 3y ago

Buttons are great. But also critical is software. On my old prius there was one knob for temperature, and you push it sideways to change temp, intensity, mode, etc, and that sucks during driving. I am very happy my Mazda has dedicated single-function physical buttons, and it'll automatically switch to the mode you're thinking of when you press a button. The tablet control via physical button is amazing compared to touch screen, takes a minute to get used to, but far far far far far far far less distracting when driving than a touchscreen.

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chaoticmass 3y ago

I bought a 2011 4runner last year and one thing I really like about it is the lack of a big infotainment touch screen. Lots of physical buttons.

ralmidani 3y ago

I’m really not against touchscreens, but cramming more and more functionality into them, indiscriminately, is deplorable and just not good UX/UI. I’m very far from being a usability expert, but I think a good rule of thumb would be putting less-essential __digital__ functions like maps and audio in the touchscreen, but essential __mechanical__ functions like climate control (which includes seat heating/ventilation) be controlled by physical buttons, switches, sliders, and/or knobs. This makes it more intuitive and also more safe to control frequently-modified functionality while keeping eyes on the road. I believe this is an essential safety issue, and it’s infuriating that companies with billions of dollars in resources and, presumably, lots of engineers and designers and usability experts with concerns that are probably ignored. Especially as cars continue to include more headline safety features (i.e. used to sell and even upsell) which are far more expensive than the components they’re skimping on. It’s very petty and irresponsible. The US government has more or less abdicated its responsibility to keep corporate greed in check. Hopefully, the EU will step in and fill that void.

93po 3y ago

I've recently been having to drive a higher end Audi from maybe... 2008? And the physical button situation is a complete fucking mess and I hate it. While driving I was trying to find the way to turn off the AC entirely because I was fed up with it being too hard to control and it took me literally 15 seconds to find it (mostly due to also driving at the same time). The UI (if you can call it that) of physical buttons is complete garbage in most cars. My daily, when I'm home, is a Yaris with three huge physical knobs - temperature, fan speed, and vent choice. It's perfect, I get exactly what I want, I don't physically have to look at it at all, I don't have to deal with automatic climate control which sucks in every single car. I'm just venting and have no real point here I guess other than physical controls suck unless it's super basic and simple.

septune 3y ago

I am curious as to the timeframe within which SpaceX will endeavor to emulate this accomplishment.

honto_jack 3y ago

[dead]

gdilla 3y ago

I hope it's not too late to see a new manual car with buttons and knobs. I think it might be. The latest golf R coulda been a true great if not for the dumb haptics.

ListeningPie 3y ago

The next obvious improvement to undo is open office spaces and bring back small offices or cubicles.