6 ms·

Suica Technology and Strategy for Future Development (2016) [pdf]

29 points by stpn 3y ago

numair 3y ago
Don’t worry! Visa and MasterCard have lobbied the hapless fools who inherited this wonderfully efficient and effective system, and the trains of Japan will soon switch over to join the global payment oligarchy. Japan is about half a generation away from mass-scale mediocrity.
- andrekandre 3y ago
  i think i may have seen those at some stations, they are attached like clunky add-ons to the gates, but ive never seen anyone actually use them.... i wonder why they are being installed... easier for tourism maybe?
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Getting a suica card on your phone is super easy as a tourist, easy to charge up using a credit card attached to ApplePay or whatever the google equiv is. The only issue is if you are traveling with a kid who needs children fares, then you actually need a physical card.
    - the-rc 3y ago
      As far as I know, you still can't tap to pay with e.g. a Pixel unless you bought it in Japan or it was flashed with a JP image. https://atadistance.net/2023/10/05/the-state-of-pixel-global-nfc-support-2023/ https://atadistance.net/2023/10/05/the-state-of-pixel-global...
      - samlinnfer 3y ago
        Works fine everywhere (e.g. FamilyMart) with Apple devices not purchased in Japan. Source: I was there
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      Maybe it's different on iOS but it is impossible on Android to use unless you have a Japanese credit card with a Japanese address. There seems to be no way to even use a foreign credit card to add money to an IC card. Had to relent on getting the cash back on my Sapphire and just top up with cash my last trip. I'm just glad most of the machines allow for 10 yen increments now, so I can just dump in coins I get from the rare place that doesn't accept credit cards nowadays.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        I heard that was also a restriction for Apple a few months before I went on my trip, but by August 2023 it wasn’t anymore. Maybe the same is true for Android? If not, that’s a super weird limitation of Android. It definitely doesn’t exist now on a iPhone. My wife and I were able to use and load phone-based suica cards without issue.
        Larrikin 3y ago
        I tried and it was completely impossible in January of this year. I didn't bother trying in November. Maybe they got rid of the restriction recently due to the Pasmo shortage.
        aikinai 3y ago
        Apple has supported FeliCa globally since 2017. Android still doesn’t. It’s not a restriction someone can remove; the non-Japanese phones just don’t have either the hardware or license necessary.
      - the-rc 3y ago
        That was a problem with foreign Visa cards only, no? AMEX and MasterCard worked. It was the same on Apple devices, but it might be fixed in the latest iOS update.
        uguuchan 3y ago
        Can confirmed fixed in latest iOS update. However, very high chance Visa will label as fraud, so need to call them.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      It's super easy but it's still an extra thing to do. For an occasional user such as a tourist it would be much better if you could use your existing payment instrument rather than having to buy a local, purpose-specific one.
      - rajup 3y ago
        Beg to disagree. I visited Japan as a tourist and even if you stay for two days the number of times you will use the subway in, say Tokyo makes the 2 minute setup totally superior to your credit card.
    - ensignavenger 3y ago
      I was in Japan this summer and could not get Suica on my phone , has that changed in the last few weeks?
- langsoul-com 3y ago
  Go to Singapore, public transport can use Visa and mastercard without any problem. Tap in and out in less than half a second.
  - numair 3y ago
    The problem isn’t technical, it’s social. I don’t want my bank, and some “global payment network” that can easily lobby its way out of real data oversight, to know my transit patterns and habits.
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      I don't think that data about how frequently you pay for mass transit, is that valuable. "This guy takes the train once early in the morning, then again in the evening", exactly like 10 million people in the city, maybe?
      - zx8080 3y ago
        If that's true why would Visa/mastercard push so hard to get into so low tx ( <$1 each) processing? What are they paying/losing money for? It's data. For some reason they're willing to pay to get a transit data for as much as possible people in several countries.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    Btw Suica is 200ms or less. To the parent, the credit card system will be parrallel to Suica/passmo, not a replacement. People would freak out with a system that isn't prepaid (think school kids), doesn't fully work offline and is twice as slow as the current one.
  - zx8080 3y ago
    Not true. Visa frequently fails.
hinoki 3y ago
One thing I really appreciate about Suica is the low latency. You can tap while walking quickly and not have to slow down to get through the ticket gate. Compared with e.g. London, where you have to almost stop because the gates take so long to open, it really makes it easy for a trainload of people to get out of a station. The name is also a bad pun; Sui-sui is onomatopoeia for smooth movement (like fish swimming), so it’s the card for moving smoothly. Also, suica means watermelon so the card is green.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  So I purchased an Apple watch and I was really excited to have contactless payments...it's fucking awkward with Mastercard or Visa to be standing there with your arm twisted in a strange way waiting for the payment to be approved. Kind of always seems like it's not going to work and people always have to make some type of joke to make you feel less weird about it. Suica is also available on the watch and it's much better? Why is that?
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    No network component whatsoever for Suica/Felica (or perhaps after the transaction ?), where I assume Apple Pay validate realtime the transaction.
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      Suica defaults to express/transit mode in Apple Pay/Wallet. Using it in your phone is as quick as using a physical card. Express mode can be configured with plenty of other cards as well, even regular credit cards. That's how it works in London. The difference in speed is because of the gates, not the payment system.
      - aikinai 3y ago
        It’s not just the gates; FeliCa is 100–200ms, much faster than all the other tap payment protocols.
axus 3y ago
Most sales of Suica were suspended this year, supposedly due to the chip shortage. That was still the case 2 months ago. It doesn't expire, I think everyone in Japan already had one. https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/news/sale-of-pasmo-and-suica-cards-suspended-except-those-for-tourists-080223 https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/news/sale-of-pasmo-and-suica-c... And there was a HN post about a relevant tweet before that.
- mdorazio 3y ago
  Suica is available for free as a mobile payment method on modern phones and works perfectly. It’s only physical card sales that were suspended in some places.
  - ink_13 3y ago
    I was not able to register my foreign phone for Suica when in Japan last February, I had to get a physical card. Maybe it's changed since then?
    - wbronitsky 3y ago
      iPhones work but foreign (outside of Japan) purchased Android devices don't
    - cgati 3y ago
      My understanding is that Android phones purchased in Japan can activate a Suica card. Foreign iPhones are able to register Suica without issue. The only hiccup I had was loading a balance on Suica wasn’t possible with Visa cards. This was the case during my trip this past October.
  - atomicfiredoll 3y ago
    Sucia requires Osaifu-Keita [1] technology. From my research, the hardware is only available in international iPhone models or models of Android phones that are (largely) sold in Japan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai
botswana99 3y ago
Why is Japanese software so bad? Chip shortage or not using the card purchase UI at train stations is confusing, even in English. As a US software engineer, I can not figure out how a country that can make great hardware (e.g. high-speed trains), has a beautifully minimalist design aesthetic (e.g. wabi-sabi), and lots of talented artists and engineers can produce such crappy user interfaces. Or for that matter, beyond a few games is irrelevant in the world software markets. Does anyone have an idea?
- bluepizza 3y ago
  I believe that there two factors that people don't talk about much: - Software engineering wasn't much of a prestige profession (I suspect still isn't), and most bright STEM students ended up studying other forms of engineering - A general lack of interest in hacking and tinkering People make some wild claims, such as kanji or East Asian culture, but there is plenty of quality Chinese and Korean software.
- atomicfiredoll 3y ago
  Some software may not bridge the gap in design sensibilities between Japan and other countries, but Sony and Nintendo are examples of massive Japanese companies working on various hardware and UX solutions for an international audience. I don't think it's fair to paint software from Japan with such a broad brush. A minimalist design aesthetic also doesn't automatically equate to good UX. I think there's lots of people on this site that would say modern, western UX is often poorly executed and potentially getting worse (in some regards.) A common complaint I hear is that interfaces have too much white-space. If UX is predicated on user research, it's important to recognize that people coming from outside Japan and who don't know the language aren't the target users and probably not the right ones to be making a judgement calls on the quality of Japanese software as a whole. If you're asking about the difference in design sensibilities, this is speculation, but a couple things that come to mind are: - The information density of local written languages. - The relatively small number of fluent English speakers in Japan means there's potentially less opportunity for ideas and design patterns to cross pollinate, making each style feel more foreign to outsiders.
- cbracken 3y ago
uguuchan 3y ago
Current status of IC cards as of today: Suica sales are back as of a week ago. They are available in JR East Travel Service Centers all around Tokyo, even if there is a sign saying they are not. You will have to ask the folks at the counter. Technically there is a restriction of one card per person, however if you are nice and ask them for more and say it's for friends they'll sell you more. Get one now, because they might be limited again soon. Pasmo card sales are also back as well, however it is very rare . These can be obtained from kiosks. You can find some of them in stations in non-central Tokyo or Yokohama. It's a hit or miss, and often they'll sell out of them from the kiosk in a day or two. Have found them in random stations in the burbs. I haven't seen them at large stations in central Tokyo. Less cool than Suicas. Toica card sales are still there, and you can get them from Tokyo Station Yaesu North. They're not as cool though, and you might encounter a weird situation where it might not work. Also they look ugly. Might as well hit up a JR East Travel Service Center. Icocas are still available freely in the Kansai area. Great if you're flying there first. Just as cool as Suicas in my opinion, and cooler than Pasmos for sure. Welcome Suicas are sometimes available at the airports. Sometimes they aren't. It really depends on the day (have checked multiple days). As of a week or so ago, they've become less available at the airports. I think that the whole supply chain is a bit weird at the moment, and they cannot keep up with demand. They also suck if you plan to come back. Pasmo Passports seem to be relatively available at major stations. It kinda sucks though because you have to have your actual passport to buy one and they look really cheesy and uncool. Do not recommend. Hit up a JR East Travel Service Center instead. Mobile IC cards as of today: Apple: (latest update 17.2) Non-JP foreign visas are working as of now. There was a previous bug/intentional feature that blocked some non-JP foreign visas that is now gone with the newest IOS update. All the large card processors are working for foreign cards, but have only personally verified visa & amex. You can use any iPhone sold from any country. If it's not working, it's because of your credit card issuer claiming fraud detection and you will have to call them. Unfortunately, some CC's will trigger the fraud detection on every transaction trying to charge your card, especially if you're charging from the US. The fraud detection teams explained it as it seems suspicious since it's through apple pay for a foreign service, and some cc companies were unable to even whitelist the transaction due to it being through Apple Pay. You just have to call them/have them call you. Be careful trying to load if you don't have cell service though because they might disable your CC until you call. Android: If you are going and do not have an Android with NFC-F ENABLED (not just present physically as the hardware may be built in, but ENABLED) you will be unable to use it. This causes a lot of confusion given that there are Google Pixel Pasmo ads all over the stations. Unfortunately, most android phones not sold in JP or other countries that use NFC-F will not be able to be used as a tap device for transit. Basically: did you buy your Android phone in JP? If not, don't count on it working. Things are changing daily so might be out of date in a week or two.

29 points by stpn 3y ago

Don’t worry! Visa and MasterCard have lobbied the hapless fools who inherited this wonderfully efficient and effective system, and the trains of Japan will soon switch over to join the global payment oligarchy. Japan is about half a generation away from mass-scale mediocrity.

andrekandre 3y ago
i think i may have seen those at some stations, they are attached like clunky add-ons to the gates, but ive never seen anyone actually use them.... i wonder why they are being installed... easier for tourism maybe?
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Getting a suica card on your phone is super easy as a tourist, easy to charge up using a credit card attached to ApplePay or whatever the google equiv is. The only issue is if you are traveling with a kid who needs children fares, then you actually need a physical card.
  - the-rc 3y ago
    As far as I know, you still can't tap to pay with e.g. a Pixel unless you bought it in Japan or it was flashed with a JP image. https://atadistance.net/2023/10/05/the-state-of-pixel-global-nfc-support-2023/ https://atadistance.net/2023/10/05/the-state-of-pixel-global...
    - samlinnfer 3y ago
      Works fine everywhere (e.g. FamilyMart) with Apple devices not purchased in Japan. Source: I was there
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    Maybe it's different on iOS but it is impossible on Android to use unless you have a Japanese credit card with a Japanese address. There seems to be no way to even use a foreign credit card to add money to an IC card. Had to relent on getting the cash back on my Sapphire and just top up with cash my last trip. I'm just glad most of the machines allow for 10 yen increments now, so I can just dump in coins I get from the rare place that doesn't accept credit cards nowadays.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I heard that was also a restriction for Apple a few months before I went on my trip, but by August 2023 it wasn’t anymore. Maybe the same is true for Android? If not, that’s a super weird limitation of Android. It definitely doesn’t exist now on a iPhone. My wife and I were able to use and load phone-based suica cards without issue.
      - Larrikin 3y ago
        I tried and it was completely impossible in January of this year. I didn't bother trying in November. Maybe they got rid of the restriction recently due to the Pasmo shortage.
      - aikinai 3y ago
        Apple has supported FeliCa globally since 2017. Android still doesn’t. It’s not a restriction someone can remove; the non-Japanese phones just don’t have either the hardware or license necessary.
    - the-rc 3y ago
      That was a problem with foreign Visa cards only, no? AMEX and MasterCard worked. It was the same on Apple devices, but it might be fixed in the latest iOS update.
      - uguuchan 3y ago
        Can confirmed fixed in latest iOS update. However, very high chance Visa will label as fraud, so need to call them.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    It's super easy but it's still an extra thing to do. For an occasional user such as a tourist it would be much better if you could use your existing payment instrument rather than having to buy a local, purpose-specific one.
    - rajup 3y ago
      Beg to disagree. I visited Japan as a tourist and even if you stay for two days the number of times you will use the subway in, say Tokyo makes the 2 minute setup totally superior to your credit card.
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    I was in Japan this summer and could not get Suica on my phone , has that changed in the last few weeks?
langsoul-com 3y ago
Go to Singapore, public transport can use Visa and mastercard without any problem. Tap in and out in less than half a second.
- numair 3y ago
  The problem isn’t technical, it’s social. I don’t want my bank, and some “global payment network” that can easily lobby its way out of real data oversight, to know my transit patterns and habits.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    I don't think that data about how frequently you pay for mass transit, is that valuable. "This guy takes the train once early in the morning, then again in the evening", exactly like 10 million people in the city, maybe?
    - zx8080 3y ago
      If that's true why would Visa/mastercard push so hard to get into so low tx ( <$1 each) processing? What are they paying/losing money for? It's data. For some reason they're willing to pay to get a transit data for as much as possible people in several countries.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Btw Suica is 200ms or less. To the parent, the credit card system will be parrallel to Suica/passmo, not a replacement. People would freak out with a system that isn't prepaid (think school kids), doesn't fully work offline and is twice as slow as the current one.
- zx8080 3y ago
  Not true. Visa frequently fails.

hinoki 3y ago

One thing I really appreciate about Suica is the low latency. You can tap while walking quickly and not have to slow down to get through the ticket gate. Compared with e.g. London, where you have to almost stop because the gates take so long to open, it really makes it easy for a trainload of people to get out of a station. The name is also a bad pun; Sui-sui is onomatopoeia for smooth movement (like fish swimming), so it’s the card for moving smoothly. Also, suica means watermelon so the card is green.

bamboozled 3y ago
So I purchased an Apple watch and I was really excited to have contactless payments...it's fucking awkward with Mastercard or Visa to be standing there with your arm twisted in a strange way waiting for the payment to be approved. Kind of always seems like it's not going to work and people always have to make some type of joke to make you feel less weird about it. Suica is also available on the watch and it's much better? Why is that?
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  No network component whatsoever for Suica/Felica (or perhaps after the transaction ?), where I assume Apple Pay validate realtime the transaction.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    Suica defaults to express/transit mode in Apple Pay/Wallet. Using it in your phone is as quick as using a physical card. Express mode can be configured with plenty of other cards as well, even regular credit cards. That's how it works in London. The difference in speed is because of the gates, not the payment system.
    - aikinai 3y ago
      It’s not just the gates; FeliCa is 100–200ms, much faster than all the other tap payment protocols.

axus 3y ago

Most sales of Suica were suspended this year, supposedly due to the chip shortage. That was still the case 2 months ago. It doesn't expire, I think everyone in Japan already had one. https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/news/sale-of-pasmo-and-suica-cards-suspended-except-those-for-tourists-080223 https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/news/sale-of-pasmo-and-suica-c... And there was a HN post about a relevant tweet before that.

mdorazio 3y ago
Suica is available for free as a mobile payment method on modern phones and works perfectly. It’s only physical card sales that were suspended in some places.
- ink_13 3y ago
  I was not able to register my foreign phone for Suica when in Japan last February, I had to get a physical card. Maybe it's changed since then?
  - wbronitsky 3y ago
    iPhones work but foreign (outside of Japan) purchased Android devices don't
  - cgati 3y ago
    My understanding is that Android phones purchased in Japan can activate a Suica card. Foreign iPhones are able to register Suica without issue. The only hiccup I had was loading a balance on Suica wasn’t possible with Visa cards. This was the case during my trip this past October.
- atomicfiredoll 3y ago
  Sucia requires Osaifu-Keita [1] technology. From my research, the hardware is only available in international iPhone models or models of Android phones that are (largely) sold in Japan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaifu-Keitai

botswana99 3y ago

Why is Japanese software so bad? Chip shortage or not using the card purchase UI at train stations is confusing, even in English. As a US software engineer, I can not figure out how a country that can make great hardware (e.g. high-speed trains), has a beautifully minimalist design aesthetic (e.g. wabi-sabi), and lots of talented artists and engineers can produce such crappy user interfaces. Or for that matter, beyond a few games is irrelevant in the world software markets. Does anyone have an idea?

bluepizza 3y ago
I believe that there two factors that people don't talk about much: - Software engineering wasn't much of a prestige profession (I suspect still isn't), and most bright STEM students ended up studying other forms of engineering - A general lack of interest in hacking and tinkering People make some wild claims, such as kanji or East Asian culture, but there is plenty of quality Chinese and Korean software.
atomicfiredoll 3y ago
Some software may not bridge the gap in design sensibilities between Japan and other countries, but Sony and Nintendo are examples of massive Japanese companies working on various hardware and UX solutions for an international audience. I don't think it's fair to paint software from Japan with such a broad brush. A minimalist design aesthetic also doesn't automatically equate to good UX. I think there's lots of people on this site that would say modern, western UX is often poorly executed and potentially getting worse (in some regards.) A common complaint I hear is that interfaces have too much white-space. If UX is predicated on user research, it's important to recognize that people coming from outside Japan and who don't know the language aren't the target users and probably not the right ones to be making a judgement calls on the quality of Japanese software as a whole. If you're asking about the difference in design sensibilities, this is speculation, but a couple things that come to mind are: - The information density of local written languages. - The relatively small number of fluent English speakers in Japan means there's potentially less opportunity for ideas and design patterns to cross pollinate, making each style feel more foreign to outsiders.
cbracken 3y ago

uguuchan 3y ago

Current status of IC cards as of today: Suica sales are back as of a week ago. They are available in JR East Travel Service Centers all around Tokyo, even if there is a sign saying they are not. You will have to ask the folks at the counter. Technically there is a restriction of one card per person, however if you are nice and ask them for more and say it's for friends they'll sell you more. Get one now, because they might be limited again soon. Pasmo card sales are also back as well, however it is very rare . These can be obtained from kiosks. You can find some of them in stations in non-central Tokyo or Yokohama. It's a hit or miss, and often they'll sell out of them from the kiosk in a day or two. Have found them in random stations in the burbs. I haven't seen them at large stations in central Tokyo. Less cool than Suicas. Toica card sales are still there, and you can get them from Tokyo Station Yaesu North. They're not as cool though, and you might encounter a weird situation where it might not work. Also they look ugly. Might as well hit up a JR East Travel Service Center. Icocas are still available freely in the Kansai area. Great if you're flying there first. Just as cool as Suicas in my opinion, and cooler than Pasmos for sure. Welcome Suicas are sometimes available at the airports. Sometimes they aren't. It really depends on the day (have checked multiple days). As of a week or so ago, they've become less available at the airports. I think that the whole supply chain is a bit weird at the moment, and they cannot keep up with demand. They also suck if you plan to come back. Pasmo Passports seem to be relatively available at major stations. It kinda sucks though because you have to have your actual passport to buy one and they look really cheesy and uncool. Do not recommend. Hit up a JR East Travel Service Center instead. Mobile IC cards as of today: Apple: (latest update 17.2) Non-JP foreign visas are working as of now. There was a previous bug/intentional feature that blocked some non-JP foreign visas that is now gone with the newest IOS update. All the large card processors are working for foreign cards, but have only personally verified visa & amex. You can use any iPhone sold from any country. If it's not working, it's because of your credit card issuer claiming fraud detection and you will have to call them. Unfortunately, some CC's will trigger the fraud detection on every transaction trying to charge your card, especially if you're charging from the US. The fraud detection teams explained it as it seems suspicious since it's through apple pay for a foreign service, and some cc companies were unable to even whitelist the transaction due to it being through Apple Pay. You just have to call them/have them call you. Be careful trying to load if you don't have cell service though because they might disable your CC until you call. Android: If you are going and do not have an Android with NFC-F ENABLED (not just present physically as the hardware may be built in, but ENABLED) you will be unable to use it. This causes a lot of confusion given that there are Google Pixel Pasmo ads all over the stations. Unfortunately, most android phones not sold in JP or other countries that use NFC-F will not be able to be used as a tap device for transit. Basically: did you buy your Android phone in JP? If not, don't count on it working. Things are changing daily so might be out of date in a week or two.