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They attempted to acquire a specific tech of Masimo, but changed their approach to hiring key resources of it instead of partnering with the company (or acquiri

They attempted to acquire a specific tech of Masimo, but changed their approach to hiring key resources of it instead of partnering with the company (or acquiring (parts of) it). The aftermath is this lawsuit, which illustrates that Apple needed their hires to build something that was already existing in Masimo and would have been subject of that partnership. I'm sure this "brainrape" strategy often works flawlessly, especially on smaller companies. But in this case the tech was already patented.

prepend 3y ago
I don’t think “brainrape” is a good description as employees leave of their own choice. The corporation isn’t paramount, the individual is. Saying Apple “brainraped” Marino because Masimo didn’t want the employees to leave with their skills leaves out the very important part that employees wanted to leave. Companies should be able to hire away key talent because it helps the talent who get hired away. As well as the talent who stay.
- rickdeckard 3y ago
  The point is not that employees left. The point is that Apple had Masimo describe their tech, the issues and methods they developed to solve them, and Apple walked away to rebuild Masimo's solution. They succeeded, but unfortunately for them the methods were already patented IP of Masimo, that company which explained this whole field to Apple in first place. The fact that Apple hired Masimo staff to do so is just the smoking gun.
  - dnissley 3y ago
    It should be noted that we're taking Masimo at their word here -- scummy as described, yes, but for all we know things may have actually gone another way: they may have tried to hold Apple over a barrel, may not have actually revealed all that much, etc.
    - rickdeckard 3y ago
      Not really. All of this is confirmed: - It's agreed by both sides that meetings took place in 2013 and subsequently a confidentiality agreement was made. - Within the same year Apple hired Masimo's Chief Medical Officer and EVP for Medical Affairs, along with additional staff. - They developed and integrated the IP of Masimo into a commercial product. - A judge ruled that Apple infringed patents of Masimo [1]. There's not so much room for things to have gone another way. They were aware of the company and its tech, they met with them, they hired the people away from this company, they built the tech, ultimately violating their IP. [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-apple-watches-infringed-masimo-patent-medical-device-maker-2023-01-11/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-apple-watches-i...
      - pests 3y ago
        Besides the patent infringement, I see no issue with them hiring key employees and trying to recreate the technology. If Apple, or some other company, approached you to rebuild what you built at your current company, for a lot more money - are you really telling me you're going to say no and that's the moral thing to do? Why are you trying to protect a company, a fictional entity, over the employees that make it up?
        rickdeckard 3y ago
        > Besides the patent infringement (..) You exclude the only topic in discussion here. Noone is framing this as an issue of individual employees. It's an issue between two companies, and one of them has a very thin argument to claim that it didn't systematically extract the other one's IP without paying for it. As mentioned elsewhere: This strategy surely works most of the time, especially on smaller companies unable to survive 10 (!!) years after their IP has been extracted to await justice. But this time it didn't work because the other company is successful in another industry and has patented the technology.
        dwaite 3y ago
        > You exclude the only topic in discussion here. Then why are we (as a group) talking about prior meetings, or employees getting hired?
  - prepend 3y ago
    That’s still not rape as no employees were forced to do anything against their will. Making large offers to attract employees isn’t even unethical or illegal, much less anyone near rape.
    - rickdeckard 3y ago
      Brain Rape, Definition: Intellectual property robbery thinly disguised as acquisition talk. Usually committed by a big company on a startup. https://svdictionary.com/words/brain-rape https://svdictionary.com/words/brain-rape
      - phatskat 3y ago
        Maybe we can just not use a term for one of the most vulgar and violating human acts to talk about something that has a lot less gravity.
  - sonicanatidae 3y ago
    I firmly believe Apple just looked at this as a cost of doing business. They would still be paying Masimo compensation and would continue for as long as the watches were sold. This way, they write one check, and are done. Is it a completely shitty way of doing business? Absolutely. Does it happen every day? Also, absolutely.
matwood 3y ago
Or like a lot of technology it quickly ages. What's more important are the minds that created said technology and will have the future ideas. This is why tech companies pay a lot and grant a lot of stock. They are trying to align their incentives not just what employees create today, but what they create tomorrow using what they learned. I don't know much about Masimo but they appear to be operating like an old school hospital technology company. They list 'algorithm developer II' salaries of $130k - 190k and requiring a MS or PhD - good luck keeping people when big tech turns its focus on an industry. https://egcu.fa.us6.oraclecloud.com/hcmUI/CandidateExperience/en/sites/CX/job/2366 https://egcu.fa.us6.oraclecloud.com/hcmUI/CandidateExperienc...
- hulitu 3y ago
  > What's more important are the minds that created said technology and will have the future ideas You mean like Leslie Lamport who was "bought" by Microsoft ? Or former X windows developers who created Wayland ? A lot of minds create once. Then live to exploit their creation.
henry2023 3y ago
Maybe the value has never been held on intelectual property but on the people who develop the technology. This is good for the workers while being bad for the capitalists.
fomine3 3y ago
Looks like another PowerVR case
shiroiuma 3y ago
I'm not sure why this is "scummy" though: if these employees really love their employer so much, why would they leave? And if they're leaving, they obviously didn't love their previous job that much. Why should employees be stuck in a particular company and not be allowed to leave? Or is it only wrong when employees leave for a larger company?

prepend 3y ago

I don’t think “brainrape” is a good description as employees leave of their own choice. The corporation isn’t paramount, the individual is. Saying Apple “brainraped” Marino because Masimo didn’t want the employees to leave with their skills leaves out the very important part that employees wanted to leave. Companies should be able to hire away key talent because it helps the talent who get hired away. As well as the talent who stay.

rickdeckard 3y ago
The point is not that employees left. The point is that Apple had Masimo describe their tech, the issues and methods they developed to solve them, and Apple walked away to rebuild Masimo's solution. They succeeded, but unfortunately for them the methods were already patented IP of Masimo, that company which explained this whole field to Apple in first place. The fact that Apple hired Masimo staff to do so is just the smoking gun.
- dnissley 3y ago
  It should be noted that we're taking Masimo at their word here -- scummy as described, yes, but for all we know things may have actually gone another way: they may have tried to hold Apple over a barrel, may not have actually revealed all that much, etc.
  - rickdeckard 3y ago
    Not really. All of this is confirmed: - It's agreed by both sides that meetings took place in 2013 and subsequently a confidentiality agreement was made. - Within the same year Apple hired Masimo's Chief Medical Officer and EVP for Medical Affairs, along with additional staff. - They developed and integrated the IP of Masimo into a commercial product. - A judge ruled that Apple infringed patents of Masimo [1]. There's not so much room for things to have gone another way. They were aware of the company and its tech, they met with them, they hired the people away from this company, they built the tech, ultimately violating their IP. [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-apple-watches-infringed-masimo-patent-medical-device-maker-2023-01-11/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-rules-apple-watches-i...
    - pests 3y ago
      Besides the patent infringement, I see no issue with them hiring key employees and trying to recreate the technology. If Apple, or some other company, approached you to rebuild what you built at your current company, for a lot more money - are you really telling me you're going to say no and that's the moral thing to do? Why are you trying to protect a company, a fictional entity, over the employees that make it up?
      - rickdeckard 3y ago
        > Besides the patent infringement (..) You exclude the only topic in discussion here. Noone is framing this as an issue of individual employees. It's an issue between two companies, and one of them has a very thin argument to claim that it didn't systematically extract the other one's IP without paying for it. As mentioned elsewhere: This strategy surely works most of the time, especially on smaller companies unable to survive 10 (!!) years after their IP has been extracted to await justice. But this time it didn't work because the other company is successful in another industry and has patented the technology.
        dwaite 3y ago
        > You exclude the only topic in discussion here. Then why are we (as a group) talking about prior meetings, or employees getting hired?
- prepend 3y ago
  That’s still not rape as no employees were forced to do anything against their will. Making large offers to attract employees isn’t even unethical or illegal, much less anyone near rape.
  - rickdeckard 3y ago
    Brain Rape, Definition: Intellectual property robbery thinly disguised as acquisition talk. Usually committed by a big company on a startup. https://svdictionary.com/words/brain-rape https://svdictionary.com/words/brain-rape
    - phatskat 3y ago
      Maybe we can just not use a term for one of the most vulgar and violating human acts to talk about something that has a lot less gravity.
- sonicanatidae 3y ago
  I firmly believe Apple just looked at this as a cost of doing business. They would still be paying Masimo compensation and would continue for as long as the watches were sold. This way, they write one check, and are done. Is it a completely shitty way of doing business? Absolutely. Does it happen every day? Also, absolutely.

matwood 3y ago

Or like a lot of technology it quickly ages. What's more important are the minds that created said technology and will have the future ideas. This is why tech companies pay a lot and grant a lot of stock. They are trying to align their incentives not just what employees create today, but what they create tomorrow using what they learned. I don't know much about Masimo but they appear to be operating like an old school hospital technology company. They list 'algorithm developer II' salaries of $130k - 190k and requiring a MS or PhD - good luck keeping people when big tech turns its focus on an industry. https://egcu.fa.us6.oraclecloud.com/hcmUI/CandidateExperience/en/sites/CX/job/2366 https://egcu.fa.us6.oraclecloud.com/hcmUI/CandidateExperienc...

hulitu 3y ago
> What's more important are the minds that created said technology and will have the future ideas You mean like Leslie Lamport who was "bought" by Microsoft ? Or former X windows developers who created Wayland ? A lot of minds create once. Then live to exploit their creation.

henry2023 3y ago

Maybe the value has never been held on intelectual property but on the people who develop the technology. This is good for the workers while being bad for the capitalists.

fomine3 3y ago

Looks like another PowerVR case

shiroiuma 3y ago

I'm not sure why this is "scummy" though: if these employees really love their employer so much, why would they leave? And if they're leaving, they obviously didn't love their previous job that much. Why should employees be stuck in a particular company and not be allowed to leave? Or is it only wrong when employees leave for a larger company?