8 ms·

I really hoped someone will help get rid of Putin from inside RU by this moment (I believe there are plenty of who may not necessary love him). EU should reall

I really hoped someone will help get rid of Putin from inside RU by this moment (I believe there are plenty of who may not necessary love him). EU should really put more cash on table to help UA.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Nationalism is one hell of a drug. And perhaps naive of us to assume that the war in Ukraine is a product only of this one man and his ideas and/or party. Unfortunately Russia seems unusually united in this "operation." EDIT: don't usually complain about downvotes, but WTH people, what did I say that's controversial? Seems some people think this is somehow pro-Russian? It's not.
- otabdeveloper4 3y ago
  > Nationalism is one hell of a drug. I completely agree. Slava Ukraini!
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    > > Nationalism is one hell of a drug. > I completely agree. Slava Ukraini! Do you see the contradiction? ;-)
    - questinthrow 3y ago
      He's implying that ukrainians got into this predicament by being nationalistic and not because they were invaded
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        I hope you're not referring to my comment, that was not my intent at all.
- oytis 3y ago
  > don't usually complain about downvotes, but WTH people, what did I say that's controversial? Sorry, I incorrectly read your statement as blaming "both sides" - I assume I might have been not the only one.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Huh, ok, odd, I didn't think I was ambiguous at all.
    - webknjaz 3y ago
      It's that opening statement that invokes memories of how the ruscist regime justifies the mass murder. It's the first thing the reader sees and it sets the tone/perception. I was confused as well, had to reread the thing.
- int_19h 3y ago
  The Russian sociopolitical culture is very imperialist, which is no surprise given that the country is one of the few remaining colonial empires in the most traditional sense (i.e. the metropole milking vast occupied territories), and it cannot really exist as a single entity without this kind of politics. That said, leadership does matter. These kinds of ideas find support in Russian society when they are put front and center, but without someone to actively do that, people just grumble about "them not respecting us as they used to" etc. At the same time, Putin does not represent the most radical manifestation of this ideology, either. Someone like e.g. Strelkov could truly go all in on "gathering the lands", as Russian historiography usually describes re-occupation.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    *> Putin does not represent the most radical manifestation of this ideology, either This is my concern. I'm no expert on Russia, but I can see this from a distance, and it's scary. A way of talking about the world that sounds so 19th century, but seems to be making a comeback. (FWIW I think American imperialism as we saw in Iraq is terrible as well, and I condemn both.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ekianjo 3y ago
[flagged]
- pjc50 3y ago
  Better than letting them get killed for loss of territory.
  - usrusr 3y ago
    Or, if they trade safety for foreign rule, getting killed in the next Russian war of expansion where undoubtedly citizens from formerly Ukrainian territories would be the first sent into the "who needs tactics if you have numbers" assaults. They don't have a non-violent option, no matter the sacrifices they'd be willing to make.
- mcv 3y ago
  To get less Ukrainians killed and less territory lost. Russia is still attacking, still trying to conquer more land. It's going incredibly slowly and at tremendous cost in Russian lives, but with less resources for the defender, it wouldn't go away; it would go faster. The only way to end this is to make clear to Russia that they cannot win this. And for that, Ukraine needs a lot more support.
- KETHERCORTEX 3y ago
  > To get more Ukrainians killed for no gain of territory? How do you see alternative options? I don't see "okay guys, let's wrap it up" as a thing invaders will accept. It will also mean "you will never return home" or "your family is under occupational regime right now, good luck" for a lot of locals, and that's unlikely this option will be accepted by them. I think some context may help. Russian government media clearly wrote that Ukrainians should be eradicated as the idea with language forbidden (they say it's "Russian spoiled by Polish" and civilians "suffering the hardships of occupation for the support of nazi regime (with further clarification that everyone is a supporter)". I'm not paraphrasing or exaggerating. I'm almost quoting. So it's not like they plan to stop on "already captured territories". It would be more of a delay before the next round, like the past few years long ceasefire before 2022. This way the question gets reduced to "at what rate do you want to see your country being dismantled?". > EU should really put more cash on table to help UA. More high-tech weaponry like rockets, drones and other stuff will lead to lesser Ukrainian casualties with bigger territorial gains, so that's a better option compared to the current state of things. Large scale wars usually go on until one of the sides can't continue anymore. Ukrainian government don't have plans to stop anytime soon and surrender may shatter the rest of the country in multiple ways, effectively ending somewhat normal functioning for years or decades to come. Also, military draft goes on and enlisted soldiers will go to battle. So it would be nice and wise to give them some technological advantage. > People talk lightly about the lives of others when its not theirs on the line Also, people talk lightly about giving up territory when it's not the territory with their homes on the line.
throwaway290 3y ago
> really hoped someone will help get rid of Putin from inside RU by this moment For normal citizens it means to risk own death. The people who think this way would rather leave the country. For oligarchs and elites, yes only putting complete economic lockdown could work. No way to travel and buy yourself or your kids comfy western way of life. Unfortunately sanctions are lax. Eg. Putin's wife lives in EU just fine I think. The people hurt mainly are regular citizens, I have a buddy who cannot open a bank acc in EU because of some evil namesake on top. Whereas oligarchs are fine, if you have money the banks are open to you worldwide. And even if sanctions were stricter crypto laundering now undermines all of them. Quite depressing this all
- oytis 3y ago
  > For oligarchs and elites, yes only putting complete economic lockdown could work. No way to travel and buy yourself or your kids comfy western way of life. I don't think that can work. Russian elites absolutely value power over Western way of life. Sanctions are only needed to starve Russian economy to a point where it cannot finance war - and it has been a mixed success so far, but in principle can work.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    > Russian elites absolutely value power over Western way of life some elites maybe, but their kids will only be after a couple of generations. It's one thing if you yourself cannot spend time in London but if your kids and relatives also cannot leave and buy a new iphone suddenly you have people to answer to.
    - deredede 3y ago
      There is something surreal about the idea that the war would end by taking away some rich kids' iPhones.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        You know what I mean. iPhone is catch all standing for quality status-signaling cars, furniture, food, any electronics, etc etc. The dinosaurs who still remember USSR will be fine without those but for later generations it'll be a shock if Chinese knockoffs is all they can have now like the plebs. Those later generations are currently reaching prime age and they are leading comfortable shock-free life that just reinforces their understanding of how there can be no consequences for association with Putler. It's clear that they are immune while if you are a regular person not associated with government and elites you are hurt by war and sanctions. So what do regular people do? Try to be associated with government and elites as best they can. How? By supporting whatever the government does. I think you underestimate how simply a desire to have nice life and signal high status can change political outcomes
drtgh 3y ago
There is an epidemic of people dying inside RU after criticizing Putin, the closer the circle of "business" the more notorious the fall through a window. The rest goes to prison under false accusations when they are public figures; this is the problem of not to have separated the political power from judicial power, among other things. Those business also makes me to think that the next one is not going to be better. Anyway, the hope should never lost, life is full of twists and turns. PS: I don't have Russian friends so my opinion is just based on what I see externally.
smallstepforman 3y ago
[flagged]
blurb4969 3y ago
[dead]

I really hoped someone will help get rid of Putin from inside RU by this moment (I believe there are plenty of who may not necessary love him). EU should really put more cash on table to help UA.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Nationalism is one hell of a drug. And perhaps naive of us to assume that the war in Ukraine is a product only of this one man and his ideas and/or party. Unfortunately Russia seems unusually united in this "operation." EDIT: don't usually complain about downvotes, but WTH people, what did I say that's controversial? Seems some people think this is somehow pro-Russian? It's not.

otabdeveloper4 3y ago
> Nationalism is one hell of a drug. I completely agree. Slava Ukraini!
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > > Nationalism is one hell of a drug. > I completely agree. Slava Ukraini! Do you see the contradiction? ;-)
  - questinthrow 3y ago
    He's implying that ukrainians got into this predicament by being nationalistic and not because they were invaded
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      I hope you're not referring to my comment, that was not my intent at all.
oytis 3y ago
> don't usually complain about downvotes, but WTH people, what did I say that's controversial? Sorry, I incorrectly read your statement as blaming "both sides" - I assume I might have been not the only one.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Huh, ok, odd, I didn't think I was ambiguous at all.
  - webknjaz 3y ago
    It's that opening statement that invokes memories of how the ruscist regime justifies the mass murder. It's the first thing the reader sees and it sets the tone/perception. I was confused as well, had to reread the thing.
int_19h 3y ago
The Russian sociopolitical culture is very imperialist, which is no surprise given that the country is one of the few remaining colonial empires in the most traditional sense (i.e. the metropole milking vast occupied territories), and it cannot really exist as a single entity without this kind of politics. That said, leadership does matter. These kinds of ideas find support in Russian society when they are put front and center, but without someone to actively do that, people just grumble about "them not respecting us as they used to" etc. At the same time, Putin does not represent the most radical manifestation of this ideology, either. Someone like e.g. Strelkov could truly go all in on "gathering the lands", as Russian historiography usually describes re-occupation.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  *> Putin does not represent the most radical manifestation of this ideology, either This is my concern. I'm no expert on Russia, but I can see this from a distance, and it's scary. A way of talking about the world that sounds so 19th century, but seems to be making a comeback. (FWIW I think American imperialism as we saw in Iraq is terrible as well, and I condemn both.)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ekianjo 3y ago

[flagged]

pjc50 3y ago
Better than letting them get killed for loss of territory.
- usrusr 3y ago
  Or, if they trade safety for foreign rule, getting killed in the next Russian war of expansion where undoubtedly citizens from formerly Ukrainian territories would be the first sent into the "who needs tactics if you have numbers" assaults. They don't have a non-violent option, no matter the sacrifices they'd be willing to make.
mcv 3y ago
To get less Ukrainians killed and less territory lost. Russia is still attacking, still trying to conquer more land. It's going incredibly slowly and at tremendous cost in Russian lives, but with less resources for the defender, it wouldn't go away; it would go faster. The only way to end this is to make clear to Russia that they cannot win this. And for that, Ukraine needs a lot more support.
KETHERCORTEX 3y ago
> To get more Ukrainians killed for no gain of territory? How do you see alternative options? I don't see "okay guys, let's wrap it up" as a thing invaders will accept. It will also mean "you will never return home" or "your family is under occupational regime right now, good luck" for a lot of locals, and that's unlikely this option will be accepted by them. I think some context may help. Russian government media clearly wrote that Ukrainians should be eradicated as the idea with language forbidden (they say it's "Russian spoiled by Polish" and civilians "suffering the hardships of occupation for the support of nazi regime (with further clarification that everyone is a supporter)". I'm not paraphrasing or exaggerating. I'm almost quoting. So it's not like they plan to stop on "already captured territories". It would be more of a delay before the next round, like the past few years long ceasefire before 2022. This way the question gets reduced to "at what rate do you want to see your country being dismantled?". > EU should really put more cash on table to help UA. More high-tech weaponry like rockets, drones and other stuff will lead to lesser Ukrainian casualties with bigger territorial gains, so that's a better option compared to the current state of things. Large scale wars usually go on until one of the sides can't continue anymore. Ukrainian government don't have plans to stop anytime soon and surrender may shatter the rest of the country in multiple ways, effectively ending somewhat normal functioning for years or decades to come. Also, military draft goes on and enlisted soldiers will go to battle. So it would be nice and wise to give them some technological advantage. > People talk lightly about the lives of others when its not theirs on the line Also, people talk lightly about giving up territory when it's not the territory with their homes on the line.

throwaway290 3y ago

> really hoped someone will help get rid of Putin from inside RU by this moment For normal citizens it means to risk own death. The people who think this way would rather leave the country. For oligarchs and elites, yes only putting complete economic lockdown could work. No way to travel and buy yourself or your kids comfy western way of life. Unfortunately sanctions are lax. Eg. Putin's wife lives in EU just fine I think. The people hurt mainly are regular citizens, I have a buddy who cannot open a bank acc in EU because of some evil namesake on top. Whereas oligarchs are fine, if you have money the banks are open to you worldwide. And even if sanctions were stricter crypto laundering now undermines all of them. Quite depressing this all

oytis 3y ago
> For oligarchs and elites, yes only putting complete economic lockdown could work. No way to travel and buy yourself or your kids comfy western way of life. I don't think that can work. Russian elites absolutely value power over Western way of life. Sanctions are only needed to starve Russian economy to a point where it cannot finance war - and it has been a mixed success so far, but in principle can work.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > Russian elites absolutely value power over Western way of life some elites maybe, but their kids will only be after a couple of generations. It's one thing if you yourself cannot spend time in London but if your kids and relatives also cannot leave and buy a new iphone suddenly you have people to answer to.
  - deredede 3y ago
    There is something surreal about the idea that the war would end by taking away some rich kids' iPhones.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      You know what I mean. iPhone is catch all standing for quality status-signaling cars, furniture, food, any electronics, etc etc. The dinosaurs who still remember USSR will be fine without those but for later generations it'll be a shock if Chinese knockoffs is all they can have now like the plebs. Those later generations are currently reaching prime age and they are leading comfortable shock-free life that just reinforces their understanding of how there can be no consequences for association with Putler. It's clear that they are immune while if you are a regular person not associated with government and elites you are hurt by war and sanctions. So what do regular people do? Try to be associated with government and elites as best they can. How? By supporting whatever the government does. I think you underestimate how simply a desire to have nice life and signal high status can change political outcomes

drtgh 3y ago

There is an epidemic of people dying inside RU after criticizing Putin, the closer the circle of "business" the more notorious the fall through a window. The rest goes to prison under false accusations when they are public figures; this is the problem of not to have separated the political power from judicial power, among other things. Those business also makes me to think that the next one is not going to be better. Anyway, the hope should never lost, life is full of twists and turns. PS: I don't have Russian friends so my opinion is just based on what I see externally.

smallstepforman 3y ago

[flagged]

blurb4969 3y ago

[dead]