4 ms·

You are are literally describing a "lingua franca" here. And there's no evidence that English is special in it's ability serve as a lingua franca. In previous

by lukev 3y ago

You are are literally describing a "lingua franca" here. And there's no evidence that English is special in it's ability serve as a lingua franca. In previous eras, other languages held this role (e.g, French, hence the term "lingua franca"). The dominance of English can be far more certainly attributed to the geopolitical dominance of english-speaking nations...

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Agree with your main point, but Lingua Franca doesn't refer to French but to "Mediterranean Lingua Franca", an actual trade language of its own which was a mix of a bunch of things. It had that name because it was "the language of the Frankish" (traders) but what they (eastern sea/Muslim traders) meant by "Franks" was any western European. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca
junofan 3y ago
What evidence are you looking for? No despot on Earth has managed to stamp it out, unlike countless other languages. You can say things like lingua franca and everyone knows what you’re talking about. There aren’t any pronouns that depend on social status. It’s got a phonetic alphabet. It’s just a natural choice for commerce and knowledge-sharing.
- lukev 3y ago
  Evidence? I was the one asking for evidence. I question the (very dubious) claim in the post I was responding to, that English is inherently suited to a role as a lingua franca. Also, separately, your counterclaims are kind of... untrue? None of them are true of (e.g.) Mandarin which definitely served as a lingua franca for the ancient far east.
- oefrha 3y ago
  You need to provide evidence that “built-in error correction functionality in English is bloody phenomenal” compared to other languages, because you can communicate with simple words and broken grammar just fine in every language I know. > Yes yes. I English speak very easy. I English hear too very easy. Easy understand. Can talk each other good just simple words. English very good. Pretty easy to “translate” that to a broken yet still understandable version of other languages.
- kergonath 3y ago
  > No despot on Earth has managed to stamp it out, unlike countless other languages. Any evidence of a language being stamped out by a despot? > You can say things like lingua franca and everyone knows what you’re talking about. Considering that the phrase is Latin, I am not sure what your point is. > There aren’t any pronouns that depend on social status. And many other quirks that are as alien to a native Japanese speaker than this is to you, however. > It’s got a phonetic alphabet What? Are we still talking about English here? FFS. > It’s just a natural choice for commerce and knowledge-sharing. It’s really not. Like all languages that ended up in similar situation (e.g. French, Arabic, Mandarin, or Latin), it is a combination of good old fashioned imperialism and commercial links.
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > Any evidence of a language being stamped out by a despot? Many languages have been wiped out by genocides, and wiping out a language is a common explicit tactic in ethnic cleansings. English has never been the source of a serious campaign of this regard, though.
    - xnorswap 3y ago
      Quite the opposite, English has been the source of many such pressures, e.g. post Norman invasion, but it simply adapted in borg-like fashion to redefine what English was; retaining some of the previous language and moulding itself to fit in some of the new language. Rather than rigidly fight against new influence, it took new words while retaining some of it's own. It does this constantly. Even Chaucer's English is difficult to decipher for a modern English speaker, and that isn't even that old.
      - chimeracoder 3y ago
        > Quite the opposite, English has been the source of many such pressures, e.g. post Norman invasion, but it simply adapted in borg-like fashion to redefine what English was What you are describing is the standard process by which languages change. It's not accurate to equate this with the systematic elimination of a linguistic group through ethnic cleansing, something which English has never experienced.

by lukev 3y ago

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Agree with your main point, but Lingua Franca doesn't refer to French but to "Mediterranean Lingua Franca", an actual trade language of its own which was a mix of a bunch of things. It had that name because it was "the language of the Frankish" (traders) but what they (eastern sea/Muslim traders) meant by "Franks" was any western European. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca

junofan 3y ago

What evidence are you looking for? No despot on Earth has managed to stamp it out, unlike countless other languages. You can say things like lingua franca and everyone knows what you’re talking about. There aren’t any pronouns that depend on social status. It’s got a phonetic alphabet. It’s just a natural choice for commerce and knowledge-sharing.

lukev 3y ago
Evidence? I was the one asking for evidence. I question the (very dubious) claim in the post I was responding to, that English is inherently suited to a role as a lingua franca. Also, separately, your counterclaims are kind of... untrue? None of them are true of (e.g.) Mandarin which definitely served as a lingua franca for the ancient far east.
oefrha 3y ago
You need to provide evidence that “built-in error correction functionality in English is bloody phenomenal” compared to other languages, because you can communicate with simple words and broken grammar just fine in every language I know. > Yes yes. I English speak very easy. I English hear too very easy. Easy understand. Can talk each other good just simple words. English very good. Pretty easy to “translate” that to a broken yet still understandable version of other languages.
kergonath 3y ago
> No despot on Earth has managed to stamp it out, unlike countless other languages. Any evidence of a language being stamped out by a despot? > You can say things like lingua franca and everyone knows what you’re talking about. Considering that the phrase is Latin, I am not sure what your point is. > There aren’t any pronouns that depend on social status. And many other quirks that are as alien to a native Japanese speaker than this is to you, however. > It’s got a phonetic alphabet What? Are we still talking about English here? FFS. > It’s just a natural choice for commerce and knowledge-sharing. It’s really not. Like all languages that ended up in similar situation (e.g. French, Arabic, Mandarin, or Latin), it is a combination of good old fashioned imperialism and commercial links.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Any evidence of a language being stamped out by a despot? Many languages have been wiped out by genocides, and wiping out a language is a common explicit tactic in ethnic cleansings. English has never been the source of a serious campaign of this regard, though.
  - xnorswap 3y ago
    Quite the opposite, English has been the source of many such pressures, e.g. post Norman invasion, but it simply adapted in borg-like fashion to redefine what English was; retaining some of the previous language and moulding itself to fit in some of the new language. Rather than rigidly fight against new influence, it took new words while retaining some of it's own. It does this constantly. Even Chaucer's English is difficult to decipher for a modern English speaker, and that isn't even that old.
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > Quite the opposite, English has been the source of many such pressures, e.g. post Norman invasion, but it simply adapted in borg-like fashion to redefine what English was What you are describing is the standard process by which languages change. It's not accurate to equate this with the systematic elimination of a linguistic group through ethnic cleansing, something which English has never experienced.