3 ms·

I mean the Russians trying to exert soft power of Europe is a thing, but over a century if French colonialism _really_ doesn't help your argument one bit.

arcticbull 3y ago
French colonialism ended a long time ago, like in the 60s. It’s been over 60 years. [edit] The French even regularly hold referendums in COMs like New Caledonia offering to cut them loose. But the last one they had 97% voted to remain part of France. Sometimes it’s good to be a dependency of a world power. I should correct myself, New Caledonia isn’t a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer) anymore but a sui generis collectivity. But I digress.
- Daishiman 3y ago
  The political impacts of the European powers' creation of borders and their intervention in places like Haiti remain to this day, lest you think people should just "let it go".
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Nobody's going to deny that the impacts of past actions continue into the present and the reasonably anticipated future. That's not the claim I'm making. I claimed that France hasn't had colonialist ambitions or policies in 60+ years. You mentioned a 'century of colonialism' - I'm pointing out that it ended more than half a century ago.
    - Daishiman 3y ago
      And I'm what I'm telling you is that nobody in Africa cares that it finished 50 years ago when the impacts are still felt today and the economic influence of the developed world continues on that tradition.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- cgio 3y ago
  60 years is not long in discussions of historical nature. You routinely see countries hating each other for something that happened >200years ago.
- okal 3y ago
  This is misleading in the extreme. The Kanaky separatists boycotted the referendum. Something I find equally interesting is how apologists for European colonialism are perfectly content to claim 60 years is a long time (with the implication that it no longer matters), when systems were designed to explicitly keep the former colonies subservient, often including co-opting, or cultivating a corrupt elite. At what point would you say it became inconsequential? After 2 years? Two decades? 4?
  - Exoristos 3y ago
    Why would they do that, except as a stunt?
    - okal 3y ago
      The referendum was based on a set calendar. The French central government refused to have it rescheduled. The Kanaky nationalists were opposed to having it run in the thick of COVID. The trajectory was in their favour, based on previous referendum outcomes, so I'm inclined to believe they boycotted as a matter of principle. In the end, the people who voted were mostly settlers from Metropolitan France, whose representatives are now actively working to roll back Kanaky autonomy. This information is very easy to find for anyone who cares, so I'm (genuinely) curious why you'd ask in what seems like a casually dismissive tone.
- femiagbabiaka 3y ago
  What a malicious lie. Former colonies were still paying debts for 50 years plus, and many of them are still paying them. France has first rights to the natural resources of many of its former colonies. Colonialism never ended, it has simply changed hands. Now corrupt African politicians trade the futures of their countries and constituents as servants of empire instead of the colonial powers having direct rule. And even China is getting a piece of the pie now.
  - Exoristos 3y ago
    That sounds like a country at the mercy of bad local leadership, which is the opposite of colonialism.
    - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
      If you feel that way, then you literally know nothing about the characteristics of many colonial states as they actually existed. One has to wonder why you’re speaking so authoritatively on the subject of that is the case.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >French colonialism ended a long time ago, like in the 60s. It’s been over 60 years. On paper yes, unofficially it never stopped. It just went underground and got better PR, as now it's no longer enslavement under the barrel of a gun, but under the pressure of money. Check out the CFA Franc[1] and Guinea, which was pressured by France to accept the CFA Franc currency, which brought financial instability and disadvantageous economic relationships between African countries and France. Or how most of Africa's resources are exploited by French (and British) companies by bribing whatever corrupt despot rules each country with the blessing of French/UK leadership, to be allowed to extract valuable resources for pennies on the dollar way below market rate while the country and the people get nothing out of it. Sure, it's technically not colonialism, as the British/French flags are no longer planted there, but come one, it's basically outsourced colonialism with extra steps through middle men. [1] https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/cfa-franc-the-colonial-currency-keeping-14-african-nations-on-a-leash-12781184 https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/cfa-franc-the-colonial-curr...
- galvin 3y ago
  The CFA franc is used by 14 countries. Until 2020, those countries were required to deposit half of their foreign exchange reserves with the French Treasury. France also maintains a military presence in several of its former colonies. Colonialism may have ended, but France continues to exert influence in Africa.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > Colonialism may have ended, but France continues to exert influence in Africa. Yes, of course. Lots of countries exert influence in Africa. The PRC just opened its first off-shore military base Djibouti. Russia has whatever fresh hell the Wagner group is bringing - especially to the Central African Republic. America has bases in at least 10 African countries. Colonialism may be over but challenges in managing international influence will always persist.

arcticbull 3y ago

French colonialism ended a long time ago, like in the 60s. It’s been over 60 years. [edit] The French even regularly hold referendums in COMs like New Caledonia offering to cut them loose. But the last one they had 97% voted to remain part of France. Sometimes it’s good to be a dependency of a world power. I should correct myself, New Caledonia isn’t a COM (collectivité d'outre-mer) anymore but a sui generis collectivity. But I digress.

Daishiman 3y ago
The political impacts of the European powers' creation of borders and their intervention in places like Haiti remain to this day, lest you think people should just "let it go".
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Nobody's going to deny that the impacts of past actions continue into the present and the reasonably anticipated future. That's not the claim I'm making. I claimed that France hasn't had colonialist ambitions or policies in 60+ years. You mentioned a 'century of colonialism' - I'm pointing out that it ended more than half a century ago.
  - Daishiman 3y ago
    And I'm what I'm telling you is that nobody in Africa cares that it finished 50 years ago when the impacts are still felt today and the economic influence of the developed world continues on that tradition.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
cgio 3y ago
60 years is not long in discussions of historical nature. You routinely see countries hating each other for something that happened >200years ago.
okal 3y ago
This is misleading in the extreme. The Kanaky separatists boycotted the referendum. Something I find equally interesting is how apologists for European colonialism are perfectly content to claim 60 years is a long time (with the implication that it no longer matters), when systems were designed to explicitly keep the former colonies subservient, often including co-opting, or cultivating a corrupt elite. At what point would you say it became inconsequential? After 2 years? Two decades? 4?
- Exoristos 3y ago
  Why would they do that, except as a stunt?
  - okal 3y ago
    The referendum was based on a set calendar. The French central government refused to have it rescheduled. The Kanaky nationalists were opposed to having it run in the thick of COVID. The trajectory was in their favour, based on previous referendum outcomes, so I'm inclined to believe they boycotted as a matter of principle. In the end, the people who voted were mostly settlers from Metropolitan France, whose representatives are now actively working to roll back Kanaky autonomy. This information is very easy to find for anyone who cares, so I'm (genuinely) curious why you'd ask in what seems like a casually dismissive tone.
femiagbabiaka 3y ago
What a malicious lie. Former colonies were still paying debts for 50 years plus, and many of them are still paying them. France has first rights to the natural resources of many of its former colonies. Colonialism never ended, it has simply changed hands. Now corrupt African politicians trade the futures of their countries and constituents as servants of empire instead of the colonial powers having direct rule. And even China is getting a piece of the pie now.
- Exoristos 3y ago
  That sounds like a country at the mercy of bad local leadership, which is the opposite of colonialism.
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    If you feel that way, then you literally know nothing about the characteristics of many colonial states as they actually existed. One has to wonder why you’re speaking so authoritatively on the subject of that is the case.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>French colonialism ended a long time ago, like in the 60s. It’s been over 60 years. On paper yes, unofficially it never stopped. It just went underground and got better PR, as now it's no longer enslavement under the barrel of a gun, but under the pressure of money. Check out the CFA Franc[1] and Guinea, which was pressured by France to accept the CFA Franc currency, which brought financial instability and disadvantageous economic relationships between African countries and France. Or how most of Africa's resources are exploited by French (and British) companies by bribing whatever corrupt despot rules each country with the blessing of French/UK leadership, to be allowed to extract valuable resources for pennies on the dollar way below market rate while the country and the people get nothing out of it. Sure, it's technically not colonialism, as the British/French flags are no longer planted there, but come one, it's basically outsourced colonialism with extra steps through middle men. [1] https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/cfa-franc-the-colonial-currency-keeping-14-african-nations-on-a-leash-12781184 https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/cfa-franc-the-colonial-curr...
galvin 3y ago
The CFA franc is used by 14 countries. Until 2020, those countries were required to deposit half of their foreign exchange reserves with the French Treasury. France also maintains a military presence in several of its former colonies. Colonialism may have ended, but France continues to exert influence in Africa.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > Colonialism may have ended, but France continues to exert influence in Africa. Yes, of course. Lots of countries exert influence in Africa. The PRC just opened its first off-shore military base Djibouti. Russia has whatever fresh hell the Wagner group is bringing - especially to the Central African Republic. America has bases in at least 10 African countries. Colonialism may be over but challenges in managing international influence will always persist.