3 ms·

Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. It's odd to me

by lol768 3y ago

Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm, particularly in e.g. the UK) and the United States (and now Australia), though perhaps this is just down to different native fauna. > The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests. The RSPB themselves have said: “While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change) Research in the UK has suggested cats are mostly preying on the "doomed surplus": https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X.... > we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively > > Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.

mattmaroon 3y ago
The UK is more resistant to change than even we Americans are (except for units of measurement). Just because something has been one way for a long time doesn’t mean it’s good. Cats kill lots of native wild animals, and whether those animal populations would be similar without them is entirely beside the point. In the same way it is inhumane to have dogs rip foxes apart for sport, it is inhumane to allow pet cats to do so too. That said, good luck stopping it. Feral breeding cat populations would be at best difficult to entirely eradicate.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  There is barely any "wilderness" in the UK. The landscape has been transformed, species have been introduced, other killed off, especially predators. In suburban areas there are also many birdfeeders in gardens. Does that mean additional birds without natural predators? I am sure that cats can have a negative impact in countries where they have been introduced more recently and where there is still true wilderness but to raise the alarm in a country like the UK seems baseless.
  - youngtaff 3y ago
    Cats kill wildlife in the UK They also shit in people gardens and veg patches, and spread toxic parasites
  - mattmaroon 3y ago
    It’s not about wilderness, it doesn’t much matter to the squirrel being ripped apart by a cat whether or not it was endemic to Leeds. It’s about the fact that people have “pets” that they let kill several animals a day for sport, and for what? So you can see that cat once a week when it comes home? It’s inhumane, and I’d argue a society caring about that is simply further evolved, culturally, in that one particular area.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Jensson 3y ago
> Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. The human population in UK has increased more than 10x since then, if cat population increased accordingly there are way more cats killing things today than back then. The more humans around the more careful we have to be about our impact on the environment, so we have to be 10 times as careful today as we used to be historically.
pvg 3y ago
Just link, don't repaste old comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37449477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37449477 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste%20comments&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
potatopatch 3y ago
I don't think the world would be a very ecologically diverse place if all continents were as domesticated as Europe. When we argue that Africa, Asia and South America should protect large predators, I think it rings hollow if we have no remorse and no restoration projects. Whatever equilibrium we've reached in Europe might need to change with more wild predators eating birds and cats.
jmclnx 3y ago
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm That is because even in the UK, small cats have been there for thousands of years. I just heard about a Scottish wild cat being introduced. Small Cats in Australia and the Americas have only been there for about 400 years. Wildlife was unable to adapt quick enough. so a lot of extinctions happened, which I am sure cats helped out. New Zealand is a good case showing damage cats (and rats) did.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  It's not like Americans are uniformly opposed to outdoor cats either. It's a relatively new thing for people here to know and care about the ecological impact.
nerdponx 3y ago
That doesn't mean that every bird or squirrel killed by a cat was unable to reproduce and raise healthy offspring. Given that we are already facing falling population and widespread extinction of just about every category of animal, and native ecosystems the world over are under threat from invasives of some kind, maybe we shouldn't be adding pressure to that. I'm sympathetic, I grew up with outdoor cats and they clearly enjoy roaming free, but is that worth it?

by lol768 3y ago

mattmaroon 3y ago

The UK is more resistant to change than even we Americans are (except for units of measurement). Just because something has been one way for a long time doesn’t mean it’s good. Cats kill lots of native wild animals, and whether those animal populations would be similar without them is entirely beside the point. In the same way it is inhumane to have dogs rip foxes apart for sport, it is inhumane to allow pet cats to do so too. That said, good luck stopping it. Feral breeding cat populations would be at best difficult to entirely eradicate.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
There is barely any "wilderness" in the UK. The landscape has been transformed, species have been introduced, other killed off, especially predators. In suburban areas there are also many birdfeeders in gardens. Does that mean additional birds without natural predators? I am sure that cats can have a negative impact in countries where they have been introduced more recently and where there is still true wilderness but to raise the alarm in a country like the UK seems baseless.
- youngtaff 3y ago
  Cats kill wildlife in the UK They also shit in people gardens and veg patches, and spread toxic parasites
- mattmaroon 3y ago
  It’s not about wilderness, it doesn’t much matter to the squirrel being ripped apart by a cat whether or not it was endemic to Leeds. It’s about the fact that people have “pets” that they let kill several animals a day for sport, and for what? So you can see that cat once a week when it comes home? It’s inhumane, and I’d argue a society caring about that is simply further evolved, culturally, in that one particular area.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Jensson 3y ago

> Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. The human population in UK has increased more than 10x since then, if cat population increased accordingly there are way more cats killing things today than back then. The more humans around the more careful we have to be about our impact on the environment, so we have to be 10 times as careful today as we used to be historically.

pvg 3y ago

Just link, don't repaste old comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37449477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37449477 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20copy%20paste%20comments&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

potatopatch 3y ago

I don't think the world would be a very ecologically diverse place if all continents were as domesticated as Europe. When we argue that Africa, Asia and South America should protect large predators, I think it rings hollow if we have no remorse and no restoration projects. Whatever equilibrium we've reached in Europe might need to change with more wild predators eating birds and cats.

jmclnx 3y ago

> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm That is because even in the UK, small cats have been there for thousands of years. I just heard about a Scottish wild cat being introduced. Small Cats in Australia and the Americas have only been there for about 400 years. Wildlife was unable to adapt quick enough. so a lot of extinctions happened, which I am sure cats helped out. New Zealand is a good case showing damage cats (and rats) did.

nerdponx 3y ago
It's not like Americans are uniformly opposed to outdoor cats either. It's a relatively new thing for people here to know and care about the ecological impact.

nerdponx 3y ago

That doesn't mean that every bird or squirrel killed by a cat was unable to reproduce and raise healthy offspring. Given that we are already facing falling population and widespread extinction of just about every category of animal, and native ecosystems the world over are under threat from invasives of some kind, maybe we shouldn't be adding pressure to that. I'm sympathetic, I grew up with outdoor cats and they clearly enjoy roaming free, but is that worth it?