8 ms·

This is what happens when the EPA's rules state chemical companies, can more or less, police themselves. We've detected PFOAs in rainwater/clouds, in the artic

This is what happens when the EPA's rules state chemical companies, can more or less, police themselves. We've detected PFOAs in rainwater/clouds, in the artic, etc (See https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765) They are going to lead to further health problems down the road.

Waterluvian 3y ago
This kind of self regulation can probably work and be cost effective if you ruthlessly destroy any company found in violation rather than some fine and an apology. Reminds me of criminal punishment in medieval times. Incarceration was a complete economic non-start so the penalties were brutal as a deterrent.
- orclev 3y ago
  Corporate capital punishment, the company gets seized it's patents and copyrights made public domain, and any other assets it has sold to the highest bidder and those profits used to compensate the victims.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Unless you scale fines with income/wealth, fines are just a way of letting the rich do what they please. On the off chance they're caught - and don't get let off the hook because of how 'respectable' they are - it's so little money to them, it's not a discouragement at all. A fine for dangerous driving that is crushing to a day laborer is unnoticeable to someone wealthy. And whereas that laborer, to challenge a ticket, would need to take time off from work costing them further - the wealthy person may have a standing relationship with a law firm, and that law firm might send a clerk or paralegal to challenge the ticket in court...and do so gratis.
  - cromulent 3y ago
    That’s why Finland has “day fines” - after a threshold, fines are x days of your last years income. 5 or 6 figure fines are not uncommon.
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      I wonder if that makes the weight of the consequence less abstract? “I sped and now I’m working for free for a day.”
- surgical_fire 3y ago
  The problem of punishing corporations, is that the people that benefited from misconduct are possibly gone from the company already, and you might be punishing current employees who might even be unaware. The people responsible for the misconduct at the time need to face criminal prosecution, and their personal wealth has to be first on the line for damage reparations.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    It’s not about punishment. That’s the core of my comment. Make it so horrible for the shareholders and owners.
    - orclev 3y ago
      Can do both. Destroy the company, but also go after those responsible. Anyone who knew about the situation but didn't make their supervisor(s) aware is personally liable for damages. Anyone on the board or C-Suite that was aware and either did nothing or didn't notify regulators is also personally liable. In both cases if anyone died as a result the companies actions they should be tried for manslaughter.
KyleBerezin 3y ago
I think the exon-mobile report on global warming is one of the most accurate models for predicting global warming, and that was written before this was a big political issue. I think having companies produce the research to hang themself with in the future is unstable though.
- acdha 3y ago
  That one always makes me sad – imagine how different our world would have been if, say, they’d gone to Carter and offered to go public with the data in exchange for help decarbonizing. He’d have gotten his French-style civilian nuclear power program, they’d probably have been able to successfully shift into emerging green industries with their enormous resources, and we wouldn’t have an expensively cultivated anti-science political movement causing problems in other areas.
  - thedragonline 3y ago
    I spent half a decade working with climate data from institutions around the world. There are dragons in those datasets and it is really frustrating to watch denialism at large and have to deal with it personally.
    - KyleBerezin 3y ago
      I wish more people were aware of how damaging bad science is, even when it is well intentioned. Environmental studies are often littered with double counting and creative data framing. One faked study does more to convince people global warming is over blown than 100 rigorous studies showing that it isn't.
      - cassepipe 3y ago
        The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests, not because some dataset has been poorly interpreted in a study they haven't read. (Also because fossil fuel people kept financing fake science for decades and are actively participating in culture wars around it)
KennyBlanken 3y ago
This is a huge problem across the board; industry and congress have been steadily stripping federal agencies of staff/budget, authority, etc. Congress long figured out how to kill off regulation that is publicly popular: strangle the agency budget-wise, not appoint new department leaders, etc. Adding ever-increasing paperwork is also popular. OSHA has the lowest number of inspectors in ~45 years. The agency is about 50 years old. https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/number-federal-workplace-safety-inspectors-falls-45-year-low/ https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/number-federal-workplace-... It has one inspector for every 77,000 workers and its budget amounts to $4/worker: https://www.afge.org/article/aflcio-osha-budget-amounts-to-399-to-protect-each-worker/ https://www.afge.org/article/aflcio-osha-budget-amounts-to-3... The EPA's inspections have fallen to half the number of ten years ago https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/02/08/under-trump-epa-inspections-fall-year-low/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/02/0... The number of ATF inspections has been falling for decades and the ATF apparently is allowing gun shops even with multiple violations to go unpunished https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2021/05/26/gun-dealers-let-off-hook-when-atf-inspections-find-violations/7210266002/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2021/0... The poultry industry pushed and got greater self-regulation around 2013 to increase line speeds: https://awionline.org/awi-quarterly/2013-fall/usda-refuses-drop-controversial-changes-inspection-program https://awionline.org/awi-quarterly/2013-fall/usda-refuses-d... The Trump administration passed widespread overhauls of the meat packing industry letting them self-regulate to increase production https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/03/federal-pork-inspectors-are-sounding-alarm-over-usdas-plan-give-industry-more-control/163527/ https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/03/federal-pork-insp... In ten years the number of food inspections the FDA conducts have fallen to one fifth the rate in 2010: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/05/fda-food-safety-inspections-plummet-despite-congressional-mandate https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/05/fda-food-safe... Foreign drug manufacturing site inspections plummeted with the pandemic and have yet to recover, too. The IRS budget has been slashed, mostly for auditing - despite audits of the 0.1% wealthiest resulting in an average of $90,000 per audit recovered: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/irs-enforcement-costs-congress-funding/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/irs... The de minimis for shipments into the US was raised from $200 to $800 in 2016 which has allowed for a massive increase in goods to be imported that are not subject to any inspection or taxes https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/de-minimis-value-increases-800 https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/de-minim...
29athrowaway 3y ago
If I understand correctly, those chemicals don't go away unless destroyed with highly sophisticated and expensive methods. They will continue to accumulate in concentration and cause more impact over time.
- monkburger 3y ago
  They do go away, but it depends on numerous factors. In humans, if you have polymorphisms in various genes relating to GSH detoxification, the half life could increase. (in theory) half-lives of long-chain PFAS were longer than those of short-chain compounds, reaching almost 3 years in some cases. Some studies estimated the average half-lives for PFHxS at 2.86 years and L-PFOS (a specific form of perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, C8) at 2.91 years. In comparison, the short-chain PFPeS had an estimated average half-life of 0.63 years, and perfluoroheptane sulfonic acid (PFHpS, C7) concentrations were 1.46 years. The shortest estimated half-lives were for perfluorobutanoic acid (PFBA, C4) at 0.12 years and perfluoroheptanoic acid (PFHpA, C7) at 0.17 years.
  - ornornor 3y ago
    Does this mean that if we stopped producing any new forever chemicals today, it would take more or less three years for organisms to expel them from their systems? Are they destroyed or simply taken out of the organisms and ready to be reabsorbed by the same or another organism for ever?
    - monkburger 3y ago
      Environmental half lives are a different animal. I vaguely recall some obs studies that estimate a half life of PFOA to be 90 (water), 114 days for PFOS, their half-life in water is greater than 90 years for PFOA and greater than 41 years for PFOS, according to a 2014 publication from the EPA. There's also a study from Europe showing vastly different half-lives based on soil temperature (colder temps -> longer half life), but I cannot locate the paper at the moment. US EPA. (2014). Emerging Contaminants Perfluorooctane Sulfonate (PFOS) and Perfluorooctanoic Acid (PFOA), https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Government%20Relations/factsheet_contaminant_pfos_pfoa_m https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Government%20Relations/factshe... arch2014.pdf
joenathanone 3y ago
This can lead to bio-death of the planet.

Waterluvian 3y ago

This kind of self regulation can probably work and be cost effective if you ruthlessly destroy any company found in violation rather than some fine and an apology. Reminds me of criminal punishment in medieval times. Incarceration was a complete economic non-start so the penalties were brutal as a deterrent.

orclev 3y ago
Corporate capital punishment, the company gets seized it's patents and copyrights made public domain, and any other assets it has sold to the highest bidder and those profits used to compensate the victims.
KennyBlanken 3y ago
Unless you scale fines with income/wealth, fines are just a way of letting the rich do what they please. On the off chance they're caught - and don't get let off the hook because of how 'respectable' they are - it's so little money to them, it's not a discouragement at all. A fine for dangerous driving that is crushing to a day laborer is unnoticeable to someone wealthy. And whereas that laborer, to challenge a ticket, would need to take time off from work costing them further - the wealthy person may have a standing relationship with a law firm, and that law firm might send a clerk or paralegal to challenge the ticket in court...and do so gratis.
- cromulent 3y ago
  That’s why Finland has “day fines” - after a threshold, fines are x days of your last years income. 5 or 6 figure fines are not uncommon.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    I wonder if that makes the weight of the consequence less abstract? “I sped and now I’m working for free for a day.”
surgical_fire 3y ago
The problem of punishing corporations, is that the people that benefited from misconduct are possibly gone from the company already, and you might be punishing current employees who might even be unaware. The people responsible for the misconduct at the time need to face criminal prosecution, and their personal wealth has to be first on the line for damage reparations.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  It’s not about punishment. That’s the core of my comment. Make it so horrible for the shareholders and owners.
  - orclev 3y ago
    Can do both. Destroy the company, but also go after those responsible. Anyone who knew about the situation but didn't make their supervisor(s) aware is personally liable for damages. Anyone on the board or C-Suite that was aware and either did nothing or didn't notify regulators is also personally liable. In both cases if anyone died as a result the companies actions they should be tried for manslaughter.

KyleBerezin 3y ago

I think the exon-mobile report on global warming is one of the most accurate models for predicting global warming, and that was written before this was a big political issue. I think having companies produce the research to hang themself with in the future is unstable though.

acdha 3y ago
That one always makes me sad – imagine how different our world would have been if, say, they’d gone to Carter and offered to go public with the data in exchange for help decarbonizing. He’d have gotten his French-style civilian nuclear power program, they’d probably have been able to successfully shift into emerging green industries with their enormous resources, and we wouldn’t have an expensively cultivated anti-science political movement causing problems in other areas.
- thedragonline 3y ago
  I spent half a decade working with climate data from institutions around the world. There are dragons in those datasets and it is really frustrating to watch denialism at large and have to deal with it personally.
  - KyleBerezin 3y ago
    I wish more people were aware of how damaging bad science is, even when it is well intentioned. Environmental studies are often littered with double counting and creative data framing. One faked study does more to convince people global warming is over blown than 100 rigorous studies showing that it isn't.
    - cassepipe 3y ago
      The reason people think climate change is overblown is because it challenges them to think about changing their way of life ie directly goes against their interests, not because some dataset has been poorly interpreted in a study they haven't read. (Also because fossil fuel people kept financing fake science for decades and are actively participating in culture wars around it)

KennyBlanken 3y ago

This is a huge problem across the board; industry and congress have been steadily stripping federal agencies of staff/budget, authority, etc. Congress long figured out how to kill off regulation that is publicly popular: strangle the agency budget-wise, not appoint new department leaders, etc. Adding ever-increasing paperwork is also popular. OSHA has the lowest number of inspectors in ~45 years. The agency is about 50 years old. https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/number-federal-workplace-safety-inspectors-falls-45-year-low/ https://www.nelp.org/news-releases/number-federal-workplace-... It has one inspector for every 77,000 workers and its budget amounts to $4/worker: https://www.afge.org/article/aflcio-osha-budget-amounts-to-399-to-protect-each-worker/ https://www.afge.org/article/aflcio-osha-budget-amounts-to-3... The EPA's inspections have fallen to half the number of ten years ago https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/02/08/under-trump-epa-inspections-fall-year-low/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/02/0... The number of ATF inspections has been falling for decades and the ATF apparently is allowing gun shops even with multiple violations to go unpunished https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2021/05/26/gun-dealers-let-off-hook-when-atf-inspections-find-violations/7210266002/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2021/0... The poultry industry pushed and got greater self-regulation around 2013 to increase line speeds: https://awionline.org/awi-quarterly/2013-fall/usda-refuses-drop-controversial-changes-inspection-program https://awionline.org/awi-quarterly/2013-fall/usda-refuses-d... The Trump administration passed widespread overhauls of the meat packing industry letting them self-regulate to increase production https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/03/federal-pork-inspectors-are-sounding-alarm-over-usdas-plan-give-industry-more-control/163527/ https://www.govexec.com/management/2020/03/federal-pork-insp... In ten years the number of food inspections the FDA conducts have fallen to one fifth the rate in 2010: https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/05/fda-food-safety-inspections-plummet-despite-congressional-mandate https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/05/fda-food-safe... Foreign drug manufacturing site inspections plummeted with the pandemic and have yet to recover, too. The IRS budget has been slashed, mostly for auditing - despite audits of the 0.1% wealthiest resulting in an average of $90,000 per audit recovered: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/irs-enforcement-costs-congress-funding/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/irs... The de minimis for shipments into the US was raised from $200 to $800 in 2016 which has allowed for a massive increase in goods to be imported that are not subject to any inspection or taxes https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/de-minimis-value-increases-800 https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/de-minim...

29athrowaway 3y ago

If I understand correctly, those chemicals don't go away unless destroyed with highly sophisticated and expensive methods. They will continue to accumulate in concentration and cause more impact over time.

monkburger 3y ago
They do go away, but it depends on numerous factors. In humans, if you have polymorphisms in various genes relating to GSH detoxification, the half life could increase. (in theory) half-lives of long-chain PFAS were longer than those of short-chain compounds, reaching almost 3 years in some cases. Some studies estimated the average half-lives for PFHxS at 2.86 years and L-PFOS (a specific form of perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, C8) at 2.91 years. In comparison, the short-chain PFPeS had an estimated average half-life of 0.63 years, and perfluoroheptane sulfonic acid (PFHpS, C7) concentrations were 1.46 years. The shortest estimated half-lives were for perfluorobutanoic acid (PFBA, C4) at 0.12 years and perfluoroheptanoic acid (PFHpA, C7) at 0.17 years.
- ornornor 3y ago
  Does this mean that if we stopped producing any new forever chemicals today, it would take more or less three years for organisms to expel them from their systems? Are they destroyed or simply taken out of the organisms and ready to be reabsorbed by the same or another organism for ever?
  - monkburger 3y ago
    Environmental half lives are a different animal. I vaguely recall some obs studies that estimate a half life of PFOA to be 90 (water), 114 days for PFOS, their half-life in water is greater than 90 years for PFOA and greater than 41 years for PFOS, according to a 2014 publication from the EPA. There's also a study from Europe showing vastly different half-lives based on soil temperature (colder temps -> longer half life), but I cannot locate the paper at the moment. US EPA. (2014). Emerging Contaminants Perfluorooctane Sulfonate (PFOS) and Perfluorooctanoic Acid (PFOA), https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Government%20Relations/factsheet_contaminant_pfos_pfoa_m https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Government%20Relations/factshe... arch2014.pdf

joenathanone 3y ago

This can lead to bio-death of the planet.