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It's like Oracle buying Sun. We just need to move on from Java to other languages at this point.
by DonHopkins 3y ago
It's like Oracle buying Sun. We just need to move on from Java to other languages at this point.
- jsiepkes 3y agoI'm no fan of Oracle but Oracle's steward ship of Java has been pretty good. They have invested in long term (open source) improvements such as Loom and Graal and open sourced additional technologies such as Flight recorder.
- solardev 3y agoIf you ever want another huge, ancient labyrinth of a language that also kinda sorta runs everywhere, the Javascript world welcomes you with open tentaces! Here we're controlled by an evil older than Oracle itself (Microsoft and Typescript), with upgrades and crossgrades and cross compilers that deliver astounding 15% improvements in performance in exchange for a mere few animal sacrifices and a lifetime of misery. In our delightful world, getting your app to run on other platforms is as simple as embedding your operating system into WASM and putting it in their browser. What could be simpler?
- typon 3y agoLooking forward to the day Amazon buys Rust
- sublinear 3y ago> controlled by an evil older than Oracle itself (Microsoft and Typescript) Who still uses typescript? It's not the mid-2010s anymore. Plain javascript is everywhere and I'd argue using a framework implies an immature project or team.
- kweingar 3y agoAccording to StackOverflow’s 2023 Developer Survey, TypeScript is the fifth most popular language, beating C, C++, Java, C#, Rust, Go, etc.
- teg4n_ 3y agoThis is an absolutely baffling take to me. Like, I don’t know if you are even being serious or not.
- realusername 3y agoI've never seen a large js codebase without typescript and I'm not even sure how you could realistically manage one without.
- endemic 3y agoIt’s a disaster. The most knowledgeable dev on my team regularly uses ChatGPT to solve typing issues. At this point we’ve lost the plot.
- cxr 3y ago> I've never seen a large js codebase without typescript So you're explicitly identifying yourself as a non-authority (but in a weird tone that tries to suggest the opposite?). <https://searchfox.org/ https://searchfox.org/> > I'm not even sure how you could realistically manage one without Pretty simple: write boring code.
- mcv 3y ago> write boring code. But who wants that?
- 3y ago
- paulddraper 3y ago> getting your app to run on other platforms is as simple as embedding your operating system into WASM and putting it in their browser ???
- solardev 3y agoI'm kidding, but sometimes it feels like that. Javascript is never just Javascript. It depends on whether you use Typescript (with tsc or tsx or esrun?). It depends whether you use V8 or Node or Deno or Bun. It depends whether you're using AWS Lambda or the Serverless framework or a Cloudflare Worker or a Vercel or Fastly edge function. It depends whether you use vanilla or HTMX or React or Next or Vue or Nuxt or Svelte or Astro or Remix or Angular or or or. Then if you go native, it depends whether you use React Native and Expo and Electron and Tauri and and and. Somehow we went from a universal language that can run in all web browsers to a hundred mutants that each only work in some niche... I've never seen two Javascript codebases that looked the same :/ Every one is like a new archeological dig. Sure, you can still find some identifiable generic pottery fragments and such, but somehow they managed to build an entire civilization in a totally different way from the one next to them, using technologies that no longer exist just a few years later.
- paulddraper 3y ago> I've never seen two Javascript codebases that looked the same I think you may have described every programming language. Except maybe Go
- solardev 3y agoProbably JS was a victim of its own success in this regard, being both incredibly popular and incredibly long-lived, which drew hordes of amateurs (myself included) in. We all re-invented the wheel, though in my case it was more like an oblong hexagon =/ I rolled with it... but I feel terrible for anyone who has to maintain my old code after me, lol.
- 3y ago
- thebestuserd 3y ago[flagged]
- DonHopkins 3y agoSure, but the JavaScript world won, and the Java world lost. A long long time ago, last century. The war has been over for decades, since the demise of Netscape Javagator in 1998. And C# was released 23 years ago, specifically designed to do to Java what Java did to C++, and it did. It's like you're trying to still fight the Civil War. https://www.wired.com/1998/02/whither-crawls-netscapes-javagator/ https://www.wired.com/1998/02/whither-crawls-netscapes-javag... >WIRED Magazine: FEB 26, 1998 4:26 PM: Whither Crawls Netscape's Javagator? Netscape officials deny a report that work on Javagator, an all-Java version of the Navigator browser, has been suspended. Oh, and then there's this: Larry Ellison
- mcv 3y agoIn the browser. Javascript won in the browser, which was indeed Java's original target platform. They lost that, but they won nearly everywhere else.
- DonHopkins 3y agoJavaScript won the war of running the same language on both sides, because it runs in the browser, and you can run any language you want on the server. You can't practically run any language you want on the browser, only one, and it's JavaScript, so it's not possible for Java to run on both sides now. And in case you didn't notice, people run JavaScript on the server all the time, because they can share the same frameworks and libraries and data structures on both sides, like easy server side rendering. The cost of developing and deploying and running and maintaining two different languages and implementations of everything and incompatible frameworks on each side is just too high, and a huge waste of energy and time and human effort. Java usage is declining and stagnating, and JavaScript/TypeScript usage is rising rapidly. And JavaScript's and TypeScript's future is not controlled by Larry Ellison. https://experttal.com/blog/top-programming-language-trends-in-2023 https://experttal.com/blog/top-programming-language-trends-i... >Top Programming Language Trends in 2023 >Java Won’t Be as Popular as It Was >In a similar vein, Java — a language central to the emergence of the software industry as we know it today — increasingly appears to be past its prime. >Java slipped out of the top spot on the TIOBE index — a position it had held for nearly two decades — a couple of years ago. As of 2023, there's every indication that Java won’t recover the top spot. >Although Java will likely remain widespread over the coming year, it's hard to imagine it returning to its former stature as one of the most popular languages. On the contrary, we suspect Java will continue to decline in popularity over the coming year and beyond. https://marketsplash.com/javascript-statistics/ https://marketsplash.com/javascript-statistics/ >50+ JavaScript Statistics For 2023 Trends & Facts >Microsoft introduced TypeScript in 2012 as an extension of JavaScript, incorporating optional typing. This adaptation retained the syntax and essence of JavaScript while implementing supplementary features essential for developers. The contrast between JavaScript and TypeScript is noteworthy, as the latter presents heightened productivity and simplified maintenance for expanding codebases. >For this reason, TypeScript transcends being merely a fleeting JavaScript trend; it has evolved into an established language. The most recent survey from 2022 indicates that JavaScript stands as the most utilized programming language, boasting a considerable 78% adoption rate among developers. This survey stems from the State of JS Survey.
- mcv 3y agoNot that I want to defend them, but Typescript is probably the best thing Microsoft ever created.
- 8372049 3y agoIf we are liberal with the meaning of "Microsoft created", there's Age of Empires II.
- matt_heimer 3y ago"JavaScript" is a trademark of Oracle Corporation in the United States.
- saiya-jin 3y agoYou sir go wherever you want but please leave Java to professionals that make companies just work (TM). Yes its not ultra fashionate with all new features in some other languages (but improving constantly), but TBH I don't care, at all, I can work till retirement with Java 8 and be very happy, at the end its just a tool to solve problems and darn good one. Proper quality engineering is delivering good robust solutions to companies, and Java is great for that in many many aspects, moreso than most other platforms. And who steers it, that's a question I couldn't care less about, just keep it working as expected, completely cross-compatible across all platforms and all previous version (looking at ya Microsoft, that clusterfuck with 'MS Visual C++ redistributable' requiring 20+ sometimes conflicting installations, often ending up in games not working at all even if required version is present - that's just bad engineering, they don't even have solid internal registry to prevent these FUBARs requiring full clean reinstall of Windows).
- DonHopkins 3y agoAll those wonderful technical and business arguments and whataboutisms and swag, but there's still: Larry Ellison
- EdwardDiego 3y agoOpenJDK is GPL 2, how is Larry going to take it away?
- r00fus 3y agoAlso many people use "Java" in the enterprise without paying Oracle a red cent.
- serf 3y agothat's a good comparison given how litigious Hasbro has been in the past.
- jmoak3 3y agoThe lawnmower has arrived, adjust behavior accordingly. You can't reason with it, it only knows: "cut grass"!