7 ms·

Is there any niche of vendors somewhat equivalent to free software zealots in Shenzhen? E.g., "you can boot this little keychain thingy without blobs."

carom 3y ago
There are another few bunnie blogs [1] on that. The concept is called gongkai. It means open in the sense of IP is shared freely. 1. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
- jancsika 3y ago
  Hm, if that's the case then why don't Western open source hardware projects just send a bilingual tourist over to Shenzhen to muck around until they connect with someone who can give them the docs needed to bootstrap the relevant firmware/drivers for the boards?
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    My guess: legal concerns. What is legal (or at least tolerated) in China with respect to gongkai is not necessarily legal in the Western world.
    - jancsika 3y ago
      I'm just surprised there seems to be no bridge whatsoever between the two. Like the developer asks, "what's the address to set this bit?" and the tourist responds with whatever it is.
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    Because that costs money.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    Why wouldn't they be able to ask in IRC/Discord/whatever still works in Hong Kong? Or, just have a Taiwanese hacker guy in the group?
- contrarian1234 3y ago
  Do you know what he's up to? I remember he was working on some super encrypted FPGA phone ages ago.. and then I haven't hear his name in .. years?
  - 0xCMP 3y ago
    He is still working on it, the precursor, they're just starting development of the messaging app that will run on that dev platform and eventually run on the betrusted final device.
  - bunnie 3y ago
    Ah yes. The Precursor is real now, you can read more at https://precursor.dev https://precursor.dev. As a baseline it can function as a password/authentication token manager, but as another user mentioned we're adding messaging features now. Another thing I'm working on is IRIS, a non-destructive method for inspecting silicon chips after mounting on a circuit board: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.07406 https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.07406 It's part of a long yak-shaving arc to make the Precursor more accessible by migrating from an FPGA-based system to an ASIC.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  That is still one of the most interesting reverse engineering blog posts ever. In the 80's I was pretty good at this stuff, especially figuring out various over-the-wire protocols to get hardware to do stuff that it wasn't intended to do. But this is on an entirely different level.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  Gongkai sounds like what happens in piracy scenes, or perhaps more specifically the game modding and ROM hacking scene. People innovating and modifying without giving a crap about who-owns-what.
- fennecbutt 3y ago
  He he, that only tends flow in one direction, from what I've seen.
wannacboatmovie 3y ago
There's plenty of free software thieves (the GPL violating kind) in Shenzhen. Sadly, there isn't a goddamn thing we can do about it. Go ahead, try enforcing the GPL in China. They'll just laugh in your face whilst trying to sell you the next shoddy widget on AliExpressazon.
- isnifailed 3y ago
  So, exactly like in the West?
  - b59831 3y ago
    [dead]
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    False equivalence https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/11452/have-there-been-any-lawsuits-involving-breach-of-open-source-licences https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/11452/have-th... How many of those are in mainland China?m Even the neighboring country of Taiwan is careful about GPL https://www.leetsai.com/ltp-special-column/legal-issues-that-companies-should-be-aware-of-when-using-open-source-software-taiwan https://www.leetsai.com/ltp-special-column/legal-issues-that...
    - userbinator 3y ago
      Incidentally, don't call Taiwan a "neighboring country" when in mainland China.
      - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
        It is a neighbor and a separate country though.
  - neilv 3y ago
    I get the impression that Western companies (and Chinese companies with non-disposable brands marketed in the West) can have GPL enforced against them. For example: https://sfconservancy.org/activities/ https://sfconservancy.org/activities/ I know one of the other dynamics is when the GPL copyright holder is more of a crunchy-granola hippie guru, who might just want to lovingly bring the lost soul into the fold, because they know not what they do. That's really not a deterrent to the people who know exactly what they're doing. Personally, I'd like to see copyright holders be less flower-child toward abusers, and more like a Scout who was helping an elderly person across the street, when they were attacked by a group of violent racists. It's not time to turn the other cheek, but to grab a heavy stick.

carom 3y ago

There are another few bunnie blogs [1] on that. The concept is called gongkai. It means open in the sense of IP is shared freely. 1. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297

jancsika 3y ago
Hm, if that's the case then why don't Western open source hardware projects just send a bilingual tourist over to Shenzhen to muck around until they connect with someone who can give them the docs needed to bootstrap the relevant firmware/drivers for the boards?
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  My guess: legal concerns. What is legal (or at least tolerated) in China with respect to gongkai is not necessarily legal in the Western world.
  - jancsika 3y ago
    I'm just surprised there seems to be no bridge whatsoever between the two. Like the developer asks, "what's the address to set this bit?" and the tourist responds with whatever it is.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  Because that costs money.
- numpad0 3y ago
  Why wouldn't they be able to ask in IRC/Discord/whatever still works in Hong Kong? Or, just have a Taiwanese hacker guy in the group?
contrarian1234 3y ago
Do you know what he's up to? I remember he was working on some super encrypted FPGA phone ages ago.. and then I haven't hear his name in .. years?
- 0xCMP 3y ago
  He is still working on it, the precursor, they're just starting development of the messaging app that will run on that dev platform and eventually run on the betrusted final device.
- bunnie 3y ago
  Ah yes. The Precursor is real now, you can read more at https://precursor.dev https://precursor.dev. As a baseline it can function as a password/authentication token manager, but as another user mentioned we're adding messaging features now. Another thing I'm working on is IRIS, a non-destructive method for inspecting silicon chips after mounting on a circuit board: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.07406 https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.07406 It's part of a long yak-shaving arc to make the Precursor more accessible by migrating from an FPGA-based system to an ASIC.
jacquesm 3y ago
That is still one of the most interesting reverse engineering blog posts ever. In the 80's I was pretty good at this stuff, especially figuring out various over-the-wire protocols to get hardware to do stuff that it wasn't intended to do. But this is on an entirely different level.
kmeisthax 3y ago
Gongkai sounds like what happens in piracy scenes, or perhaps more specifically the game modding and ROM hacking scene. People innovating and modifying without giving a crap about who-owns-what.
fennecbutt 3y ago
He he, that only tends flow in one direction, from what I've seen.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago

There's plenty of free software thieves (the GPL violating kind) in Shenzhen. Sadly, there isn't a goddamn thing we can do about it. Go ahead, try enforcing the GPL in China. They'll just laugh in your face whilst trying to sell you the next shoddy widget on AliExpressazon.

isnifailed 3y ago
So, exactly like in the West?
- b59831 3y ago
  [dead]
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  False equivalence https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/11452/have-there-been-any-lawsuits-involving-breach-of-open-source-licences https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/11452/have-th... How many of those are in mainland China?m Even the neighboring country of Taiwan is careful about GPL https://www.leetsai.com/ltp-special-column/legal-issues-that-companies-should-be-aware-of-when-using-open-source-software-taiwan https://www.leetsai.com/ltp-special-column/legal-issues-that...
  - userbinator 3y ago
    Incidentally, don't call Taiwan a "neighboring country" when in mainland China.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      It is a neighbor and a separate country though.
- neilv 3y ago
  I get the impression that Western companies (and Chinese companies with non-disposable brands marketed in the West) can have GPL enforced against them. For example: https://sfconservancy.org/activities/ https://sfconservancy.org/activities/ I know one of the other dynamics is when the GPL copyright holder is more of a crunchy-granola hippie guru, who might just want to lovingly bring the lost soul into the fold, because they know not what they do. That's really not a deterrent to the people who know exactly what they're doing. Personally, I'd like to see copyright holders be less flower-child toward abusers, and more like a Scout who was helping an elderly person across the street, when they were attacked by a group of violent racists. It's not time to turn the other cheek, but to grab a heavy stick.