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Is the root cause Israel's policies, or the very idea that Jews have any right to self determination in their historical homeland? Because the latter is defini

Is the root cause Israel's policies, or the very idea that Jews have any right to self determination in their historical homeland? Because the latter is definitely an antisemitic position. It is actually possible to support Israel's right to exist while objecting to (some of, or even many of) Israel's policies and actions, but denying that Jews have a valid claim to any of the land kinda puts you outside that camp.

BillyTheMage 3y ago
I didn't mean to imply that. I think everyone deserves a home. But what Israel is doing is far from "self-determination".
- webmaven 3y ago
  Hamas, as an organization, is founded on the idea that the State of Israel should be destroyed and all Jews should be killed or expelled. Antisemitism is at their core. If Israel has a right to exist, they must deal with existential threats like Hamas. If you have suggestions for how to do so while doing less harm to the civilian population that Hamas is using as a human shield, I'm all ears. And if you didn't mean to imply that, why do only Palestinians apparently have an "actual" claim?
  - BillyTheMage 3y ago
    Yes, Hamas is evil and anti-semetic. But it was created as a response to evil things Isreal was doing. Like a kid who gets bullied bringing a gun to school because they just fuckin can't take it anymore. It's wrong and they should be stopped, but to ignore the fact that they were pushed to this point by other people who are equally or more awful is just self-defeating. I hope all this isn't coming off as a defense of Hamas. I simply see Hamas and the Israeli state as equally evil, two heads of one machine that does nothing but hurt people.
    - webmaven 3y ago
      Ah. So your position is "a pox on both their houses" and implying moral equivalence between the entire state of Israel (which includes plenty of Jewish peace activists, Arab citizens with the right to vote, Druze and Bedouin citizens who serve in the IDF, and much other complexity) and a terrorist organization that deliberately targets civilians by preference while using their own civilian population as a human shield. Pardon me if I don't accept that premise. It isn't that Israel doesn't have any genocidal extremists, because they do. They tend to end up in jail, though.
clipsy 3y ago
> Is the root cause Israel's policies, or the very idea that Jews have any right to self determination in their historical homeland? Do native Americans have the right to self determination in their historical homeland?

BillyTheMage 3y ago

I didn't mean to imply that. I think everyone deserves a home. But what Israel is doing is far from "self-determination".

webmaven 3y ago
Hamas, as an organization, is founded on the idea that the State of Israel should be destroyed and all Jews should be killed or expelled. Antisemitism is at their core. If Israel has a right to exist, they must deal with existential threats like Hamas. If you have suggestions for how to do so while doing less harm to the civilian population that Hamas is using as a human shield, I'm all ears. And if you didn't mean to imply that, why do only Palestinians apparently have an "actual" claim?
- BillyTheMage 3y ago
  Yes, Hamas is evil and anti-semetic. But it was created as a response to evil things Isreal was doing. Like a kid who gets bullied bringing a gun to school because they just fuckin can't take it anymore. It's wrong and they should be stopped, but to ignore the fact that they were pushed to this point by other people who are equally or more awful is just self-defeating. I hope all this isn't coming off as a defense of Hamas. I simply see Hamas and the Israeli state as equally evil, two heads of one machine that does nothing but hurt people.
  - webmaven 3y ago
    Ah. So your position is "a pox on both their houses" and implying moral equivalence between the entire state of Israel (which includes plenty of Jewish peace activists, Arab citizens with the right to vote, Druze and Bedouin citizens who serve in the IDF, and much other complexity) and a terrorist organization that deliberately targets civilians by preference while using their own civilian population as a human shield. Pardon me if I don't accept that premise. It isn't that Israel doesn't have any genocidal extremists, because they do. They tend to end up in jail, though.

clipsy 3y ago

> Is the root cause Israel's policies, or the very idea that Jews have any right to self determination in their historical homeland? Do native Americans have the right to self determination in their historical homeland?