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This seems to be Beeper's insincere attempt at dressing up their grievances to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer. Apple has made it

This seems to be Beeper's insincere attempt at dressing up their grievances to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer. Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android. People who choose to invest in Android phones know they won't get access to iMessage. It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business.

user_7832 3y ago
> It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business. It is simultaneously possible for it to appear entitled, while also recognizing how extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition Apple is. And in this fight of a trillion dollar company vs something a little bigger than a startup, it's fun to root for the small guys who are hitting back at that restrictedness, sometimes even successfully.
- shreyansh_k 3y ago
  It can be agreeable to an extend that Apple seem like an extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition. But, the other side (Android), which has been positioned open, pro-consumer and pro-competition doesn't seem to be true to its roots or any better anyways. Android is mostly dominated by Samsung and Samsung is heavily pushing their own ecosystem of apps, just like every other company, and most brands want to lock in their users too. It's a sad state of affairs.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rezonant 3y ago
    You can push your own ecosystem of apps and still allow your customers to replace them. I'm not aware of a Samsung app or service that cannot be swapped out. And I struggle even more to find a Samsung component that is designed to create network effect lock in like iMessage is. And Apple Messages can't be swapped out, it is the only texting app on iOS. You can install Signal or Whatsapp or whatever, but you can only talk to other people who have those apps installed. You cannot use them to talk to any phone number like a texting app can.
    - fh9302 3y ago
      RCS can't be swapped out, Google hasn't opened the API so you are forced to use Google or Samsung messages app.
dataangel 3y ago
It's not entitled, it's pushing back against a gigantic company exploiting network effects to create user lock-in, because that's easier than competing on the merit of your products.
- shreyansh_k 3y ago
  That doesn't seem right. People can also push back against Apple by voting with their wallets. Apple has been able to create their ecosystem by exerting control over it. If someone doesn't like it, they can start their own business giving people what people want. Now, that's another way of pushing against any gigantic company or Apple.
- joshmanders 3y ago
  Now apply this logic to any other company product, maybe even your own or the company you work for and tell me if this sounds as ridiculous to you as it does me.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Most companies don't have network effect with lock-in, and especially those we depend to live our everyday lives: I can send money to my buddy who uses a different bank, I can send emails to gmail users from my yahoo account , I can also refuel my car at any station and not be tied to one brand. Imagine being locked in to any of those. There are of course a lot of companies with lock-in out there, but none with such big network effect deeply intertwined with peoples' communication and personal lives (in the US).
    - verwalt 3y ago
      The thing is: it is not locking in. At the moment through SMS and it will support RCS next year. And RCS will solve it all. If group chats and high quality media work, people will only complain about the one thing they hate most: The bubbles will still be green. But I am from Europe, we don't care around here and I don't like iMessage that much. Compared to Telegram/Whatsapp, it's slow at loading old messages, has sync issues and only gut swipe to reply this year.
crooked-v 3y ago
> to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer They are. This was perfectly normal and expected functionality once upon a time, back in the days when Adium/Pidgin were still useful.
ck425 3y ago
Out of curiosity why does this matter? Do iPhone users not use WhatsApp or Messenger? Is this a USA specific thing? As a UK Android user I've never used iMessage and don't see any reason why I'd need or want to.
- infotainment 3y ago
  USA specific — Americans pretty much universally use SMS messages, which ends up being iMessage for Apple devices.
  - ck425 3y ago
    Huh. How does that work with multimedia? Do US carriers not differentiate between SMS and MMS?
    - infotainment 3y ago
      They don’t, it “just works” (to the degree MMS can work at all) — which means iMessage is perfectly positioned.
      - ck425 3y ago
        Ah so do "free texts" in the USA include MMS? That might explain the continued usage. In the UK MMS often aren't included, if anything they're charged stupidly high, so you'd never send a pic via text message.
        rimunroe 3y ago
        yes
        wrboyce 3y ago
        To give you another perspective, I’m UK based too and use iMessage daily to stay in touch with my family and close friends. Every now and then I’ll have bad signal (or maybe the recipient does? I’m not entirely sure…) and whatever I’m sending will be sent as an MMS. It happens so rarely it doesn’t really register, and I’d wager it costs me less than a quid a year (on EE, but I assume most MMOs have similar MMS pricing).
skeaker 3y ago
How is being able to send iMessages to your Android-user friends from your iPhone not to your advantage as an Apple customer?
- gunapologist99 3y ago
  It's not to Apple's advantage, though.
  - skeaker 3y ago
    That does not address my question.
- tgma 3y ago
  You’d be surprised how many people in the US have purely iPhone social circles. They won’t care. The graph is almost disjoint. Outside tech nerds, android == poor.
  - skeaker 3y ago
    You're still advantaged should you ever make friends with an Android user in the future, or at the very least you're not disadvantaged since you would not have had any difference made to you.
throwaway290 3y ago
> Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android. Apple might disagree. https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
- MissTake 3y ago
  That’s not iMessage. RCS is a replacement for SMS.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    It's pretty much iMessage.
    - MissTake 3y ago
      No, it’s not even close. RCS is a totally different messaging protocol. It’s pretty much to iMessage as iMessage is to SMS.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        Reread what I said. I did not say "you are wrong" or "RCS is iMessage". I said "Apple might disagree with you" and "RCS is pretty much iMessage". Why don't you stop trying to make me seem wrong by putting words into my mouth.
        MissTake 3y ago
        This is the original message you replied to: ‘Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android.’ This was your reply: ‘Apple might disagree.’ and you then proceeded to supply a link to 9to5Mac about Apple interfaces iMessage to RCS. TFA states: “But at the same time, iMessage isn’t going anywhere. It will continue to be the messaging platform used for all communication between iPhone users. RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage when available. SMS and MMS will also continue to be available as a fallback when needed, Apple says. This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it’s the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage” The very link you supplied disproves your point. iMessage is iMessage. RCS is RCS, and SMS is SMS. Sorry, but iMessage is not RCS. Base RCS for example does not support E2EE. iMessage does. You can claim they’re the same as much as you’d like, but their only similarities is that iMessage will send messages to RCS and support the native carrier chosen RCS features. https://www.engadget.com/what-is-rcs-and-how-is-it-different-from-sms-and-imessage-202334057.html https://www.engadget.com/what-is-rcs-and-how-is-it-different...
drexlspivey 3y ago
Is Beeper’s whole purpose to satisfy people’s vanity to have blue bubbles or what’s wrong with plain ol’ SMS?
- dijit 3y ago
  aside from the magic features not working; SMS costs money. On some mobile contracts it's pretty close to free these days, but international SMS's are certainly not. - not sure it's a common use-case but it definitely is a common use-case for me. Ironically, iMessage not being available on Android causes the other messenger apps to be more appealing. Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger. -- because they can be more ubiquitous across friends.
- hn_acker 3y ago
  SMS is not end-to-end encrypted (E2EE). The purpose of Beeper Mini (not to be confused with Beeper Cloud, which is not E2EE) is to allow Android users to send encrypted texts to Apple iMessage users the same way iMessage users can send E2EE texts to each other. An Android user and an iOS user could both use a third-party app like Signal. But Beeper Mini's main feature is maintaining encryption for chats between Android users and iMessage users, saving the Android users the need to convince iMessage users to switch to a different messaging app. 1. The benefit of E2EE applies to the users on both ends, including iMessage users. 2. With Beeper Mini instead of an E2EE-dedicated multi-platform app like Signal, only one side of the communication pair needs to install something. Beeper Mini Apple doesn't want to make an iMessage implementation for Android.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
> It seems a bit entitled behaviour What's entitled behavior is big tech thinking it can dictate how and where we use technology and services. Why should we be roped into serving Apple's interests and ignoring own own? Beeper can pursue their own interests while benefiting users, that's hardly a negative. I'm sure if Ford dictated how and where you drove your car you'd be outraged, but we should kowtow to the likes of Apple?
- DeIlliad 3y ago
  > I'm sure if Ford dictated how and where you drove your car you'd be outraged, but we should kowtow to the likes of Apple? I just wouldn't buy a Ford.
  - rezonant 3y ago
    What if Ford made it so that their vehicles drive worse when non-Ford vehicles were on the road, and then when confronted about it told all of their customers that they should convince their neighbors to buy a Ford to solve the problem?
    - nneonneo 3y ago
      > What if Ford made it so that their vehicles drive worse Then you really wouldn't buy a Ford. Problem solved?
rezonant 3y ago
People use Beeper Mini because the Apple users they text with want them to. There's zero reason for two Android users to talk over iMessage using Beeper Mini. RCS provides nearly all the same benefits. But when the social pressure is for you to buy an iPhone that you don't want, it's sure tempting to just install an app so that Apple friends can stop complaining, and stop cutting you out of group chats. If no one used iMessage, the value of Beeper Mini is zero. The value is smoothing the interaction with people who assume everyone is using an iPhone, and treat it as an annoyance when they don't. So effectively saying "just buy an iPhone to use iMessage" means "just buy an iPhone so you can talk to your iPhone friends".
quadrifoliate 3y ago
There are reports of kids being bullied (this [1] is an example from a Tell HN post), but I have anecdotally heard similar cases because they were "different" for having a "non-blue bubble" phone. When there is broad agreement that apps like Tiktok and Instagram are toxic for teenagers, I have no idea why this aspect of Apple's lock-in hasn't received as much attention. It's way more serious than just some users wanting blue bubbles when your applications are common enough that they can cause social isolation and bullying in schools. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014499
paxys 3y ago
Entitled behavior is Apple dictating what code I can run on my non-Apple servers and devices. They can keep blocking it, and people will keep finding workarounds. That's the nature of DRM. It's not a battle they can win.
- vlozko 3y ago
  They don’t dictate that at all. What they do dictate is what devices are able to connect to their network and utilize their push notification service.

user_7832 3y ago

> It seems a bit entitled behaviour for someone to feel like Apple should be forced to bring iMessage to Android for any reason besides Apple's own choice, and that they know better than Apple on how to run Apple's business. It is simultaneously possible for it to appear entitled, while also recognizing how extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition Apple is. And in this fight of a trillion dollar company vs something a little bigger than a startup, it's fun to root for the small guys who are hitting back at that restrictedness, sometimes even successfully.

shreyansh_k 3y ago
It can be agreeable to an extend that Apple seem like an extremely restrictive, anti consumer and anti competition. But, the other side (Android), which has been positioned open, pro-consumer and pro-competition doesn't seem to be true to its roots or any better anyways. Android is mostly dominated by Samsung and Samsung is heavily pushing their own ecosystem of apps, just like every other company, and most brands want to lock in their users too. It's a sad state of affairs.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rezonant 3y ago
  You can push your own ecosystem of apps and still allow your customers to replace them. I'm not aware of a Samsung app or service that cannot be swapped out. And I struggle even more to find a Samsung component that is designed to create network effect lock in like iMessage is. And Apple Messages can't be swapped out, it is the only texting app on iOS. You can install Signal or Whatsapp or whatever, but you can only talk to other people who have those apps installed. You cannot use them to talk to any phone number like a texting app can.
  - fh9302 3y ago
    RCS can't be swapped out, Google hasn't opened the API so you are forced to use Google or Samsung messages app.

dataangel 3y ago

It's not entitled, it's pushing back against a gigantic company exploiting network effects to create user lock-in, because that's easier than competing on the merit of your products.

shreyansh_k 3y ago
That doesn't seem right. People can also push back against Apple by voting with their wallets. Apple has been able to create their ecosystem by exerting control over it. If someone doesn't like it, they can start their own business giving people what people want. Now, that's another way of pushing against any gigantic company or Apple.
joshmanders 3y ago
Now apply this logic to any other company product, maybe even your own or the company you work for and tell me if this sounds as ridiculous to you as it does me.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Most companies don't have network effect with lock-in, and especially those we depend to live our everyday lives: I can send money to my buddy who uses a different bank, I can send emails to gmail users from my yahoo account , I can also refuel my car at any station and not be tied to one brand. Imagine being locked in to any of those. There are of course a lot of companies with lock-in out there, but none with such big network effect deeply intertwined with peoples' communication and personal lives (in the US).
  - verwalt 3y ago
    The thing is: it is not locking in. At the moment through SMS and it will support RCS next year. And RCS will solve it all. If group chats and high quality media work, people will only complain about the one thing they hate most: The bubbles will still be green. But I am from Europe, we don't care around here and I don't like iMessage that much. Compared to Telegram/Whatsapp, it's slow at loading old messages, has sync issues and only gut swipe to reply this year.

crooked-v 3y ago

> to appear as if they were in advantage of the [Apple's] customer They are. This was perfectly normal and expected functionality once upon a time, back in the days when Adium/Pidgin were still useful.

ck425 3y ago

Out of curiosity why does this matter? Do iPhone users not use WhatsApp or Messenger? Is this a USA specific thing? As a UK Android user I've never used iMessage and don't see any reason why I'd need or want to.

infotainment 3y ago
USA specific — Americans pretty much universally use SMS messages, which ends up being iMessage for Apple devices.
- ck425 3y ago
  Huh. How does that work with multimedia? Do US carriers not differentiate between SMS and MMS?
  - infotainment 3y ago
    They don’t, it “just works” (to the degree MMS can work at all) — which means iMessage is perfectly positioned.
    - ck425 3y ago
      Ah so do "free texts" in the USA include MMS? That might explain the continued usage. In the UK MMS often aren't included, if anything they're charged stupidly high, so you'd never send a pic via text message.
      - rimunroe 3y ago
        yes
      - wrboyce 3y ago
        To give you another perspective, I’m UK based too and use iMessage daily to stay in touch with my family and close friends. Every now and then I’ll have bad signal (or maybe the recipient does? I’m not entirely sure…) and whatever I’m sending will be sent as an MMS. It happens so rarely it doesn’t really register, and I’d wager it costs me less than a quid a year (on EE, but I assume most MMOs have similar MMS pricing).

skeaker 3y ago

How is being able to send iMessages to your Android-user friends from your iPhone not to your advantage as an Apple customer?

gunapologist99 3y ago
It's not to Apple's advantage, though.
- skeaker 3y ago
  That does not address my question.
tgma 3y ago
You’d be surprised how many people in the US have purely iPhone social circles. They won’t care. The graph is almost disjoint. Outside tech nerds, android == poor.
- skeaker 3y ago
  You're still advantaged should you ever make friends with an Android user in the future, or at the very least you're not disadvantaged since you would not have had any difference made to you.

throwaway290 3y ago

> Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android. Apple might disagree. https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/

MissTake 3y ago
That’s not iMessage. RCS is a replacement for SMS.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  It's pretty much iMessage.
  - MissTake 3y ago
    No, it’s not even close. RCS is a totally different messaging protocol. It’s pretty much to iMessage as iMessage is to SMS.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Reread what I said. I did not say "you are wrong" or "RCS is iMessage". I said "Apple might disagree with you" and "RCS is pretty much iMessage". Why don't you stop trying to make me seem wrong by putting words into my mouth.
      - MissTake 3y ago
        This is the original message you replied to: ‘Apple has made it clear that they won't bring iMessage to Android.’ This was your reply: ‘Apple might disagree.’ and you then proceeded to supply a link to 9to5Mac about Apple interfaces iMessage to RCS. TFA states: “But at the same time, iMessage isn’t going anywhere. It will continue to be the messaging platform used for all communication between iPhone users. RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage when available. SMS and MMS will also continue to be available as a fallback when needed, Apple says. This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it’s the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage” The very link you supplied disproves your point. iMessage is iMessage. RCS is RCS, and SMS is SMS. Sorry, but iMessage is not RCS. Base RCS for example does not support E2EE. iMessage does. You can claim they’re the same as much as you’d like, but their only similarities is that iMessage will send messages to RCS and support the native carrier chosen RCS features. https://www.engadget.com/what-is-rcs-and-how-is-it-different-from-sms-and-imessage-202334057.html https://www.engadget.com/what-is-rcs-and-how-is-it-different...

drexlspivey 3y ago

Is Beeper’s whole purpose to satisfy people’s vanity to have blue bubbles or what’s wrong with plain ol’ SMS?

dijit 3y ago
aside from the magic features not working; SMS costs money. On some mobile contracts it's pretty close to free these days, but international SMS's are certainly not. - not sure it's a common use-case but it definitely is a common use-case for me. Ironically, iMessage not being available on Android causes the other messenger apps to be more appealing. Whatsapp/Facebook Messenger. -- because they can be more ubiquitous across friends.
hn_acker 3y ago
SMS is not end-to-end encrypted (E2EE). The purpose of Beeper Mini (not to be confused with Beeper Cloud, which is not E2EE) is to allow Android users to send encrypted texts to Apple iMessage users the same way iMessage users can send E2EE texts to each other. An Android user and an iOS user could both use a third-party app like Signal. But Beeper Mini's main feature is maintaining encryption for chats between Android users and iMessage users, saving the Android users the need to convince iMessage users to switch to a different messaging app. 1. The benefit of E2EE applies to the users on both ends, including iMessage users. 2. With Beeper Mini instead of an E2EE-dedicated multi-platform app like Signal, only one side of the communication pair needs to install something. Beeper Mini Apple doesn't want to make an iMessage implementation for Android.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

> It seems a bit entitled behaviour What's entitled behavior is big tech thinking it can dictate how and where we use technology and services. Why should we be roped into serving Apple's interests and ignoring own own? Beeper can pursue their own interests while benefiting users, that's hardly a negative. I'm sure if Ford dictated how and where you drove your car you'd be outraged, but we should kowtow to the likes of Apple?

DeIlliad 3y ago
> I'm sure if Ford dictated how and where you drove your car you'd be outraged, but we should kowtow to the likes of Apple? I just wouldn't buy a Ford.
- rezonant 3y ago
  What if Ford made it so that their vehicles drive worse when non-Ford vehicles were on the road, and then when confronted about it told all of their customers that they should convince their neighbors to buy a Ford to solve the problem?
  - nneonneo 3y ago
    > What if Ford made it so that their vehicles drive worse Then you really wouldn't buy a Ford. Problem solved?

rezonant 3y ago

People use Beeper Mini because the Apple users they text with want them to. There's zero reason for two Android users to talk over iMessage using Beeper Mini. RCS provides nearly all the same benefits. But when the social pressure is for you to buy an iPhone that you don't want, it's sure tempting to just install an app so that Apple friends can stop complaining, and stop cutting you out of group chats. If no one used iMessage, the value of Beeper Mini is zero. The value is smoothing the interaction with people who assume everyone is using an iPhone, and treat it as an annoyance when they don't. So effectively saying "just buy an iPhone to use iMessage" means "just buy an iPhone so you can talk to your iPhone friends".

quadrifoliate 3y ago

There are reports of kids being bullied (this [1] is an example from a Tell HN post), but I have anecdotally heard similar cases because they were "different" for having a "non-blue bubble" phone. When there is broad agreement that apps like Tiktok and Instagram are toxic for teenagers, I have no idea why this aspect of Apple's lock-in hasn't received as much attention. It's way more serious than just some users wanting blue bubbles when your applications are common enough that they can cause social isolation and bullying in schools. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35014499

paxys 3y ago

Entitled behavior is Apple dictating what code I can run on my non-Apple servers and devices. They can keep blocking it, and people will keep finding workarounds. That's the nature of DRM. It's not a battle they can win.

vlozko 3y ago
They don’t dictate that at all. What they do dictate is what devices are able to connect to their network and utilize their push notification service.