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Beeper CEO, from the article: "If there's enough pressure on Apple, they will have to quit messing with us." "Us," he clarified, meant both Apple's customers us

Beeper CEO, from the article: "If there's enough pressure on Apple, they will have to quit messing with us." "Us," he clarified, meant both Apple's customers using iMessage and Android users trying to chat securely with iPhone friends. "That's who they're penalizing," he wrote. "It's not a Beeper vs. Apple fight, it's Apple versus customers." Not really sure how this is anti-customer. Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging.

echelon 3y ago
> Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers, this is the "everything" device that handles your bills, employment, connections to loved ones, etc. And there's only one other choice of vendor in the United States. Apple shouldn't be able to exercise their position (nor should Google) to own every aspect of human life built atop this connection. Mobile internet shouldn't belong to anyone. It shouldn't be taxed by anyone. And yet here we are. One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols.
- qeternity 3y ago
  > This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers No, it’s exactly this. There are a ton of manufacturers all providing this product. It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. And as has been mentioned, there are tons of secure messaging alternatives. It’s just that people prefer iMessage. This is not illegal or anticompetitive. Imagine if someone claimed they should be let into an airport lounge of an airline they aren’t flying on, simply because their friends are there.
  - smallerfish 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - echelon 3y ago
    Apple or Google-controlled Android. Pick one. Both tax everything in the world now. They're even becoming official government document providers. They're sinking their claws into all aspects of life and taxing and controlling them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    > It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. I don't think you can explain it that way. Network effect is a thing and instant messaging preferences are very regional. Also: - With same products and quality Apple probably would probably have lower share in the USA if it was a chinese or iranian company. - Regardless of its qualities the iphone has long been and is still a social class status symbol. - The conversation on hn is skewed because iphones have slightly higher than 50% of market share in the USA, not 90% yet commenters on hn mention that their social circle is almost entirely made of iMessage users, which means the average hn commenter is of a much higher income and social class than the average US smartphone user. Using hn is mostly like entering a fancy suburb and only discuss with a limited subset of the population.
- joshmanders 3y ago
  > It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. When did Apple take ownership of the internet? Or are you referring to iOS? Which is actually not even the market leader at all? My question is, if their ecosystem is soooo much better... Instead of fighting them to make it available on other devices why don't you, I don't know... Buy their devices?
- sbuk 3y ago
  > One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols. So not sideloading or App Store Alternatives, or setting a limit of the App Store fees, or advertising alternative payments? (edit: I'm not suggesting any of there are or are not valid reason, just that it's laughable to suggest that messaging will be at, or near the top of the list. Especially from a 5 Eyes government!)
- shreyansh_k 3y ago
  > It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. On the flip side, Apple spent a lot of effort into developing their ecosystem. It doesn't seem fair to Apple that other companies get to piggyback on Apple's investments without Apple's permission. I'm not an Apple fan, but, that kind of sounds illegal. Imagine if you were to develop something useful and then someone comes around telling you that they deserve access to your awesome thing just because, even to your own detriment - even when they haven't spent the time and effort building it or contributing to the development process.
edgineer 3y ago
I'm an apple customer but I don't agree that I have ample access to iMessage. I use a MacBook and have an old iPhone lying around, but I use my android phone for daily messaging, including my family who use iPhones.
aesh2Xa1 3y ago
Apple has customers who want to use iMessage. Those customers are not able to use iMessage to securely communicate with Android users. That's pretty clear. If Apple's customers want to be able to use iMessage for such communications then (1) the Android user buys an Apple product, (2) a third party makes a cross-platform iMessage client, or (3) Apple open iMessage to other platforms. Apple is blocking on (2) and (3).
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Apple has customers who want to use iMessage. Those customers are not able to use iMessage to securely communicate with Android users Of course they do. There's Signal and Telegram and WhatsApp. My principal benefit of iMessage is its relative lack of spam. (And when I do get spam, it gets stomped out fast.) Apple Music blitzkrieging Spotify is bullshit. The lock on subscription payments is bullshit. I happen to think the App Store is fine, but I'll concede that there's a real debate to be had there. But this isn't a material issue.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    >Apple Music blitzkrieging Spotify is bullshit. What is this referencing? >The lock on subscription payments is bullshit. I pay for app subscriptions outside of the App store, since it is usually cheaper.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > What is this referencing Spotify launched on iOS. Apple saw them competing with iTunes and basically stole their idea to compete with them. That, alone, would be okay. But Apple Music is privileged within iOS and Apple's marketing in a way Spotify cannot be.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Oh, I would apply that to any number of things Apple integrated, for example dropbox/icloud drive. Google does the same thing. Unfortunately, with the near zero marginal cost of software, I do not see any way around vertical integration unless the law started arbitrarily segregating businesses. Also, Apple Music came out 5 years after Spotify, so it had a pretty healthy lead. But regardless, any non Apple vendor competing with Apple's bundled products is going to face an uphill battle.
tiltowait 3y ago
It's definitely a weird fight, especially when you consider Beeper wants to make money off of Apple's service without any compensation going Apple's way. It's hard for me to tell if the Beeper CEO is delusional or simply doing PR speak.
- advael 3y ago
  "Interoperability is picking apple's pocket by allowing people cross-platform secure communication in a way that's usable to them" is a take that is bending over backwards to lick corporate boot. I get that part of apple's marketing is extreme brand loyalty, but your communications with non-ios users being less secure harms you as an ios user too, and the loss to apple is one of control over its customers' behavior more than anything else
gmm1990 3y ago
Any chat I'm in that has at least one Android user is annoying. I'd prefer if the imessage features would be possible for those chats too.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Any chat I'm in that has at least one Android user is annoying Is this still the case since they stopped sending the "gmm1990 hearted XYZ" messages, and instead integrated the tapbacks? I really don't see a difference unless I'm in the air (and so cannot connect to the cellular network).
wishfish 3y ago
Speaking as an Apple customer, there are many times I wish iMessage was more open. My partner and some friends prefer Android. Would be great to use Messages with them. Plus, I'd love to have Messages on whatever desktop I'm using. Sure, I spend the majority of my time in MacOS. But, I've got Windows, Linux, and Chromebooks here in the house. Would be so much more convenient to have Messages on all platforms.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  What is stopping you from using Whatsapp/Signal?
  - nani8ot 3y ago
    As an Android user I'd rather use iMessage than WhatsApp, if I have to choose between proprietary messaging apps. Meta isn't a company I want to rely upon, but I'm forced to because of almost everyone using WhatsApp where I live.
  - wishfish 3y ago
    Absolutely nothing. I already use alternative services for Android contacts. I just like iMessage and wish it was available on non-Apple hardware. Would be immensely more convenient.
i5-2520M 3y ago
I have seen comments from iMessage users, and it is also logical to assume that they would prefer if there was a way to chat with their Android friends via iMessage while having most of the nice features. An Android iMessage app would only be bad for Apple, since they will no longer be able retain and convert users based on them being or not being able to comfortably message their friends.
- joshmanders 3y ago
  As an Apple customer here's my thoughts on this: 1. Yes I would love if iMessage went Android and all my Android friends were able to react, thread convos, and all the other perks that iMessage allows, BUT the color of the message doesn't matter to me. I'm ok with the green bubbles too. 2. If iMessages was available on Android, I and every iPhone user I know wouldn't be like "finally, I can leave Apple!" iMessage is a perk not the main draw. The wider ecosystem and walled garden that non-Apple users apparently hate so much is not-surprisingly lovely to those of us all in on it.
  - i5-2520M 3y ago
    1. Sure, completely get this. 2. This might be the case for most people, but I have heard people did or do switch obly due to iMessage. To be clear I don't think there would be a huge exodus, but it is a major lock-in feature in the US. Or at least that is what I have read.
unshavedyak 3y ago
> Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging. In fairness, i am a 5+ device apple customer and i can't use it on my two primary desktops. I use Beeper to write texts on my primary computer. Apple feels anti-me. I pay for products and unless i'm 100% into the ecosystem they fight me. Sure, they don't owe me an app on every platform i like - but they're also fighting me developing my own, too.
- josephg 3y ago
  Yeah. I’ve got all sorts of Apple stuff in the house. One apple ecosystem piece I adore is being able to copy paste between my Apple devices. I’d love it if that worked from my Linux workstation too. C’mon, Apple.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    kdeconnect has an iOS app
  - advael 3y ago
    One workaround is something like barrier/synergy, if that still works on macos. Doesn't cover phones, but it's something
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    Thanks to kde connect, I've been really enjoying shared clipboard between Windows, Linux, and my Android phone.
- unsignedint 3y ago
  I discontinued using Apple products primarily due to their ecosystem-centric design philosophy. Many features appear tailored exclusively for users fully committed to Apple's ecosystem. While it's common for platforms to have exclusive features, Apple's approach feels more pronounced. In contrast, Google, for instance, offers Android-specific features, yet their services function well across various platforms, including mobile and desktop, and this compatibility extends to Apple devices as well.
otachack 3y ago
Agreed on there being access to other encrypted messaging apps. But that doesn't account for "app-fatigue" where people are fed up with getting yet another application (think Zoom, Meet, Slack, Signal, Discord, etc) and thus you have friction on getting people to use a new app. For example: I've tried to get friends and family on Telegram and only succeeded in getting a fraction of them. I also feel that they're using it just to appease me and don't use it with others. SMS/MMS/RCS/iMessage have default apps on phones and people tend to not seek replacement or simply can't (iMessage) This is what Beeper is trying to fix by introducing an app just for Android users to connect with iMessage users, thus challenging the Apple walled garden. I haven't jumped on the Beeper wagon because I don't know the consequences of this tug-o-war. Would I lose secure messages if the iMessage rug gets pulled out while my number is registered? It seems I would unless I deregister my number. It just seems too volatile to me but I'm a fan of Pebble and wish the Beeper team+founders the best. I'll be keeping my eye on this.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
"Apple customers have ample access to iMessage" I have an iPad Pro, a MBP, a MBA, and an iPhone X. I can send and receive iMessages on those devices. But I cannot access iMessage on the devices I use most often: - my main computer (a desktop running Ubuntu) - my main phone (a Google Pixel) I don't feel I have 'ample access to iMessage'.
prmoustache 3y ago
> Not really sure how this is anti-customer. Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging. The point of a secure instant messaging protocol/app is to be able to communicate securely with people. If the company providing said app make it on purpose difficult for its customers to communicate with people, it is penalizing them. We are not talking technical difficulties, we are talking unwillingness to let a secure channel stay open and making so that communication with people is less secure.

echelon 3y ago

> Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers, this is the "everything" device that handles your bills, employment, connections to loved ones, etc. And there's only one other choice of vendor in the United States. Apple shouldn't be able to exercise their position (nor should Google) to own every aspect of human life built atop this connection. Mobile internet shouldn't belong to anyone. It shouldn't be taxed by anyone. And yet here we are. One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols.

qeternity 3y ago
> This isn't an automobile where there are 50 alternative manufacturers No, it’s exactly this. There are a ton of manufacturers all providing this product. It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. And as has been mentioned, there are tons of secure messaging alternatives. It’s just that people prefer iMessage. This is not illegal or anticompetitive. Imagine if someone claimed they should be let into an airport lounge of an airline they aren’t flying on, simply because their friends are there.
- smallerfish 3y ago
  [flagged]
- echelon 3y ago
  Apple or Google-controlled Android. Pick one. Both tax everything in the world now. They're even becoming official government document providers. They're sinking their claws into all aspects of life and taxing and controlling them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- prmoustache 3y ago
  > It just so happens that Apple’s is one of the best, if not the best. I don't think you can explain it that way. Network effect is a thing and instant messaging preferences are very regional. Also: - With same products and quality Apple probably would probably have lower share in the USA if it was a chinese or iranian company. - Regardless of its qualities the iphone has long been and is still a social class status symbol. - The conversation on hn is skewed because iphones have slightly higher than 50% of market share in the USA, not 90% yet commenters on hn mention that their social circle is almost entirely made of iMessage users, which means the average hn commenter is of a much higher income and social class than the average US smartphone user. Using hn is mostly like entering a fancy suburb and only discuss with a limited subset of the population.
joshmanders 3y ago
> It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. When did Apple take ownership of the internet? Or are you referring to iOS? Which is actually not even the market leader at all? My question is, if their ecosystem is soooo much better... Instead of fighting them to make it available on other devices why don't you, I don't know... Buy their devices?
sbuk 3y ago
> One of the first rulings from antitrust I would expect is non-proprietary messaging protocols. So not sideloading or App Store Alternatives, or setting a limit of the App Store fees, or advertising alternative payments? (edit: I'm not suggesting any of there are or are not valid reason, just that it's laughable to suggest that messaging will be at, or near the top of the list. Especially from a 5 Eyes government!)
shreyansh_k 3y ago
> It's not really fair that Apple gets to build snares around owning the most successful and important platform in modern civilization. On the flip side, Apple spent a lot of effort into developing their ecosystem. It doesn't seem fair to Apple that other companies get to piggyback on Apple's investments without Apple's permission. I'm not an Apple fan, but, that kind of sounds illegal. Imagine if you were to develop something useful and then someone comes around telling you that they deserve access to your awesome thing just because, even to your own detriment - even when they haven't spent the time and effort building it or contributing to the development process.

edgineer 3y ago

I'm an apple customer but I don't agree that I have ample access to iMessage. I use a MacBook and have an old iPhone lying around, but I use my android phone for daily messaging, including my family who use iPhones.

aesh2Xa1 3y ago

Apple has customers who want to use iMessage. Those customers are not able to use iMessage to securely communicate with Android users. That's pretty clear. If Apple's customers want to be able to use iMessage for such communications then (1) the Android user buys an Apple product, (2) a third party makes a cross-platform iMessage client, or (3) Apple open iMessage to other platforms. Apple is blocking on (2) and (3).

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Apple has customers who want to use iMessage. Those customers are not able to use iMessage to securely communicate with Android users Of course they do. There's Signal and Telegram and WhatsApp. My principal benefit of iMessage is its relative lack of spam. (And when I do get spam, it gets stomped out fast.) Apple Music blitzkrieging Spotify is bullshit. The lock on subscription payments is bullshit. I happen to think the App Store is fine, but I'll concede that there's a real debate to be had there. But this isn't a material issue.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  >Apple Music blitzkrieging Spotify is bullshit. What is this referencing? >The lock on subscription payments is bullshit. I pay for app subscriptions outside of the App store, since it is usually cheaper.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > What is this referencing Spotify launched on iOS. Apple saw them competing with iTunes and basically stole their idea to compete with them. That, alone, would be okay. But Apple Music is privileged within iOS and Apple's marketing in a way Spotify cannot be.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Oh, I would apply that to any number of things Apple integrated, for example dropbox/icloud drive. Google does the same thing. Unfortunately, with the near zero marginal cost of software, I do not see any way around vertical integration unless the law started arbitrarily segregating businesses. Also, Apple Music came out 5 years after Spotify, so it had a pretty healthy lead. But regardless, any non Apple vendor competing with Apple's bundled products is going to face an uphill battle.

tiltowait 3y ago

It's definitely a weird fight, especially when you consider Beeper wants to make money off of Apple's service without any compensation going Apple's way. It's hard for me to tell if the Beeper CEO is delusional or simply doing PR speak.

advael 3y ago
"Interoperability is picking apple's pocket by allowing people cross-platform secure communication in a way that's usable to them" is a take that is bending over backwards to lick corporate boot. I get that part of apple's marketing is extreme brand loyalty, but your communications with non-ios users being less secure harms you as an ios user too, and the loss to apple is one of control over its customers' behavior more than anything else

gmm1990 3y ago

Any chat I'm in that has at least one Android user is annoying. I'd prefer if the imessage features would be possible for those chats too.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Any chat I'm in that has at least one Android user is annoying Is this still the case since they stopped sending the "gmm1990 hearted XYZ" messages, and instead integrated the tapbacks? I really don't see a difference unless I'm in the air (and so cannot connect to the cellular network).

wishfish 3y ago

Speaking as an Apple customer, there are many times I wish iMessage was more open. My partner and some friends prefer Android. Would be great to use Messages with them. Plus, I'd love to have Messages on whatever desktop I'm using. Sure, I spend the majority of my time in MacOS. But, I've got Windows, Linux, and Chromebooks here in the house. Would be so much more convenient to have Messages on all platforms.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
What is stopping you from using Whatsapp/Signal?
- nani8ot 3y ago
  As an Android user I'd rather use iMessage than WhatsApp, if I have to choose between proprietary messaging apps. Meta isn't a company I want to rely upon, but I'm forced to because of almost everyone using WhatsApp where I live.
- wishfish 3y ago
  Absolutely nothing. I already use alternative services for Android contacts. I just like iMessage and wish it was available on non-Apple hardware. Would be immensely more convenient.

i5-2520M 3y ago

I have seen comments from iMessage users, and it is also logical to assume that they would prefer if there was a way to chat with their Android friends via iMessage while having most of the nice features. An Android iMessage app would only be bad for Apple, since they will no longer be able retain and convert users based on them being or not being able to comfortably message their friends.

joshmanders 3y ago
As an Apple customer here's my thoughts on this: 1. Yes I would love if iMessage went Android and all my Android friends were able to react, thread convos, and all the other perks that iMessage allows, BUT the color of the message doesn't matter to me. I'm ok with the green bubbles too. 2. If iMessages was available on Android, I and every iPhone user I know wouldn't be like "finally, I can leave Apple!" iMessage is a perk not the main draw. The wider ecosystem and walled garden that non-Apple users apparently hate so much is not-surprisingly lovely to those of us all in on it.
- i5-2520M 3y ago
  1. Sure, completely get this. 2. This might be the case for most people, but I have heard people did or do switch obly due to iMessage. To be clear I don't think there would be a huge exodus, but it is a major lock-in feature in the US. Or at least that is what I have read.

unshavedyak 3y ago

> Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging. In fairness, i am a 5+ device apple customer and i can't use it on my two primary desktops. I use Beeper to write texts on my primary computer. Apple feels anti-me. I pay for products and unless i'm 100% into the ecosystem they fight me. Sure, they don't owe me an app on every platform i like - but they're also fighting me developing my own, too.

josephg 3y ago
Yeah. I’ve got all sorts of Apple stuff in the house. One apple ecosystem piece I adore is being able to copy paste between my Apple devices. I’d love it if that worked from my Linux workstation too. C’mon, Apple.
- fragmede 3y ago
  kdeconnect has an iOS app
- advael 3y ago
  One workaround is something like barrier/synergy, if that still works on macos. Doesn't cover phones, but it's something
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  Thanks to kde connect, I've been really enjoying shared clipboard between Windows, Linux, and my Android phone.
unsignedint 3y ago
I discontinued using Apple products primarily due to their ecosystem-centric design philosophy. Many features appear tailored exclusively for users fully committed to Apple's ecosystem. While it's common for platforms to have exclusive features, Apple's approach feels more pronounced. In contrast, Google, for instance, offers Android-specific features, yet their services function well across various platforms, including mobile and desktop, and this compatibility extends to Apple devices as well.

otachack 3y ago

Agreed on there being access to other encrypted messaging apps. But that doesn't account for "app-fatigue" where people are fed up with getting yet another application (think Zoom, Meet, Slack, Signal, Discord, etc) and thus you have friction on getting people to use a new app. For example: I've tried to get friends and family on Telegram and only succeeded in getting a fraction of them. I also feel that they're using it just to appease me and don't use it with others. SMS/MMS/RCS/iMessage have default apps on phones and people tend to not seek replacement or simply can't (iMessage) This is what Beeper is trying to fix by introducing an app just for Android users to connect with iMessage users, thus challenging the Apple walled garden. I haven't jumped on the Beeper wagon because I don't know the consequences of this tug-o-war. Would I lose secure messages if the iMessage rug gets pulled out while my number is registered? It seems I would unless I deregister my number. It just seems too volatile to me but I'm a fan of Pebble and wish the Beeper team+founders the best. I'll be keeping my eye on this.

rahimnathwani 3y ago

"Apple customers have ample access to iMessage" I have an iPad Pro, a MBP, a MBA, and an iPhone X. I can send and receive iMessages on those devices. But I cannot access iMessage on the devices I use most often: - my main computer (a desktop running Ubuntu) - my main phone (a Google Pixel) I don't feel I have 'ample access to iMessage'.

prmoustache 3y ago

> Not really sure how this is anti-customer. Apple customers have ample access to iMessage, after all. And as has been noted many, many times, there are many means of accessing secure cross-platform messaging. The point of a secure instant messaging protocol/app is to be able to communicate securely with people. If the company providing said app make it on purpose difficult for its customers to communicate with people, it is penalizing them. We are not talking technical difficulties, we are talking unwillingness to let a secure channel stay open and making so that communication with people is less secure.