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This reminds me of a thing cory doctorow talks about how tech companies control the narrative to focus on fun sexy problems while they have fundamental problems

by JZL003 3y ago

This reminds me of a thing cory doctorow talks about how tech companies control the narrative to focus on fun sexy problems while they have fundamental problems which expose the lie. For example uber/self driving cars always talking about the trolley problem, as if the current (or near future) problem is that self-driving cars are so good they have to choose which one. Not the current very difficult problem of getting confused by traffic cones. I know these problems are more fun to talk about and also could be a problem at some point, but we have some current problems about training models separate from what happens if they become smarter than humans

refulgentis 3y ago
After some meditation, I don't find this line of inquiry to bear fruit: I don't recall any entity, nor the entities named (Uber / self-driving cars) talking about the trolley problem - that's a well-known thought experiment in philosophy, but not something covered as a stark binary choice in self-driving cars planner systems. I also don't recall traffic cones being a very difficult problem beyond Cruise + cones on windshield in SF. I have no love for Cruise. But its straightforward to pause if there's a large object on the windshield. I don't think Corey's observation w/r/t A) loss-making companies over years B) focusing investors towards speculative advancements that would make their current business model profitable without changing applies here, OpenAI is _very_ successful. After all that, I'm left at "Corey would take a bit of offense towards their thoughts on corporate responsibility via 'Uber is a predatory massively unprofitable company lying about odds they'll invent self-driving via talking about trolley problem' misshapen to critique a very profitable company funding fundamental research in the interest of safety that would be needed if their current rate of improvement continues.
- cma 3y ago
  > I also don't recall traffic cones being a very difficult problem beyond Cruise + cones on windshield in SF. I have no love for Cruise. But its straightforward to pause if there's a large object on the windshield. Waymo had a big mistake with cones where a lane was blocked off for construction and they thought it was the inverse and started driving down the blocked off side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4O9QfUE5uI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4O9QfUE5uI full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A&t=12m24s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A&t=12m24s In the statement before that timestamp they say some of it was caused by remote operator error. But it seems to have enough problems with cones to need an operator in the first place, and you can see the planner is wrong. I think Cruise would be using a human or at least summoning one to oversee in any situation with unexpected cones, based on what they have said about how often they use remote assistance too.
novaRom 3y ago
OpenAI do probably realize they will not win long term vs Open Source (see AI Alliance). Their way of centralized cloud models is simply too risky and not sustainable. What we see instead is more liberation, open source, cooperation, down-scaling, local models. Just look how many more tools and models is available today than even a year ago. And where is OpenAI? Still the same chatGPT, still the same DALL-E, nothing new.
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  That’s a bit reductive. Lots of new closed models have come out since then too. And, chatGPT and DALLE (while closed) have both received consistent upgrades and remain competitive with state of the art. I’m hopeful that you’re correct but it’s perhaps not guaranteed that the people with all the money wind up failing in this regard. And I say this as someone who makes open contributions in that space.
- johnfn 3y ago
  Both ChatGPT and DALL-E have received major updates over the last year (3 to 4 turbo and 2 to 3, respectively).

by JZL003 3y ago

refulgentis 3y ago

After some meditation, I don't find this line of inquiry to bear fruit: I don't recall any entity, nor the entities named (Uber / self-driving cars) talking about the trolley problem - that's a well-known thought experiment in philosophy, but not something covered as a stark binary choice in self-driving cars planner systems. I also don't recall traffic cones being a very difficult problem beyond Cruise + cones on windshield in SF. I have no love for Cruise. But its straightforward to pause if there's a large object on the windshield. I don't think Corey's observation w/r/t A) loss-making companies over years B) focusing investors towards speculative advancements that would make their current business model profitable without changing applies here, OpenAI is _very_ successful. After all that, I'm left at "Corey would take a bit of offense towards their thoughts on corporate responsibility via 'Uber is a predatory massively unprofitable company lying about odds they'll invent self-driving via talking about trolley problem' misshapen to critique a very profitable company funding fundamental research in the interest of safety that would be needed if their current rate of improvement continues.

cma 3y ago
> I also don't recall traffic cones being a very difficult problem beyond Cruise + cones on windshield in SF. I have no love for Cruise. But its straightforward to pause if there's a large object on the windshield. Waymo had a big mistake with cones where a lane was blocked off for construction and they thought it was the inverse and started driving down the blocked off side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4O9QfUE5uI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4O9QfUE5uI full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A&t=12m24s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKCQKBvH-A&t=12m24s In the statement before that timestamp they say some of it was caused by remote operator error. But it seems to have enough problems with cones to need an operator in the first place, and you can see the planner is wrong. I think Cruise would be using a human or at least summoning one to oversee in any situation with unexpected cones, based on what they have said about how often they use remote assistance too.

novaRom 3y ago

OpenAI do probably realize they will not win long term vs Open Source (see AI Alliance). Their way of centralized cloud models is simply too risky and not sustainable. What we see instead is more liberation, open source, cooperation, down-scaling, local models. Just look how many more tools and models is available today than even a year ago. And where is OpenAI? Still the same chatGPT, still the same DALL-E, nothing new.

ShamelessC 3y ago
That’s a bit reductive. Lots of new closed models have come out since then too. And, chatGPT and DALLE (while closed) have both received consistent upgrades and remain competitive with state of the art. I’m hopeful that you’re correct but it’s perhaps not guaranteed that the people with all the money wind up failing in this regard. And I say this as someone who makes open contributions in that space.
johnfn 3y ago
Both ChatGPT and DALL-E have received major updates over the last year (3 to 4 turbo and 2 to 3, respectively).