5 ms·

> A condition has been written in the computer code to disable the ability to run a train if it spends at least 10 days in one of these workshops. Wow, that's

by cs702 3y ago

> A condition has been written in the computer code to disable the ability to run a train if it spends at least 10 days in one of these workshops. Wow, that's just... so wrong.

JonChesterfield 3y ago
Uh, maybe not. These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Was that sarcasm?
  - JonChesterfield 3y ago
    No sarcasm, just in total disagreement with the (initial/apparent) HN consensus. I've put a top level comment which is hopefully clearer.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      You are also disagreeing with the owner and operator of the train, who is responsible for its safe operation.
- indymike 3y ago
  > These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. This makes little sense. It's pretty reasonable that any machine that is sent for repair may take longer than expected in the workshop. Parts availability for one. Also, manpower shortages, scheduling (we don't need it back until next month) and so on all make this "heuristic" more likely be a scam. This idea that the manufacturer is entitled to a lifetime stream of repair revenue has to stop. I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck.
  - riskable 3y ago
    > I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck. Yeah if you're going to try to pull a scam like that the US is not your best option: https://nypost.com/2022/12/27/texas-mechanic-executed-over-500-repair-bill-family/ https://nypost.com/2022/12/27/texas-mechanic-executed-over-5... https://www.thetrucker.com/trucking-news/the-nation/pennsylvania-dump-truck-driver-allegedly-kills-mechanic-with-rig-over-bill https://www.thetrucker.com/trucking-news/the-nation/pennsylv... https://apnews.com/article/auto-shop-shooting-florida-c4d45f917e3925e32327effa1e94dcfa https://apnews.com/article/auto-shop-shooting-florida-c4d45f... If you just search "truck owner murders mechanic" you get tons of unique results.
    - verall 3y ago
      The top comments on that nypost article are insane, blaming the victim for probably doing "unauthorized repairs", and saying that the "southern border" is at fault. Wow.
      - bigbillheck 3y ago
        > and saying that the "southern border" is at fault There's people posting like that here on HN.
        labster 3y ago
        Nah, the Canadians on HN are too nice to blame us.
    - donkeyd 3y ago
      I feel like blaming guns might upset some people, but I don't feel like this type of thing happens as much in the rest of the western world, where gun laws are typically a lot stricter.
      - hackideiomat 3y ago
- CrazyStat 3y ago
  No, absolutely not. (1) This was scheduled maintenance service, not a quick repair. Maintenance is complicated and is expected to take more than 10 days: > Maintenance a train is a complicated affair – it has to be taken apart, the parts sent to the various manufacturers, checked, sent back, the train put back together again and tested. The SPS carries out the maintenance procedures according to the relevant maintenance manual (some 20,000 pages) provided by the manufacturer, but the train does not start after being put together. From [1]. (2) If this was a legitimate check then there should be a legible error code instead of the train randomly locking up with no explanation why. This was clearly designed to sabotage competing maintenance service companies. [1] https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/ https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavywei...
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Ok so no sarcasm, well, there are many reasons a train can spend a long time in the workshop: Complete checkup takes time, or one important mechanic is sick, delaying things or whatever. It is not the responsibility of the manufactor anymore. (A different company has the official service contract.) If you have other informations pls share.
  - p_l 3y ago
    In at least two cases, the train was simply unused for 10 days for unrelated reasons. After which the two specific trains this happened to "gained" GPS lockout.
- dogleash 3y ago
  > These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. I know HN is a great place to practice PR-speak, but could you please stop fucking with the gullible people?
  - JonChesterfield 3y ago
    The words were chosen to indicate uncertainty on my part. A train parked in a repair depot for a fortnight triggering a need for more checks before putting it in service? I can totally imagine that spec being signed off in meetings. Fortunately the voting system on here does an excellent job of hiding unpopular thoughts so I doubt I've confused anyone.
    - dcow 3y ago
      You’re just pushing a pretty blatantly uninformed opinion supporting a frankly indefensible position. My car had minor collision damage and it took the manufacture’s 1st party service center 3 weeks to fix it. The assumption that manufacturers are uniquely positioned to repair their products is a poisonous tactic being used by insidious players to discredit right to repair.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      This is stretching my sarcasm meter to the breaking point, either you are very good at deadpanning or you are trying really hard to muddy waters that are crystal clear. If the former, well played.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  That’s not a long outage. If someone decided to paint it, the clean, prep and paint could take that long. And now you have a dead train.
- stonemetal12 3y ago
  The manufacture's current position is someone hacked their systems and changed the code so that it would make them a lot of money, they totally didn't do that. >"The president of Newag contacted me," Cieszyński wrote. "He claims that Newag fell victim to cybercriminals and it was not an intentional action by the company. The analysis I saw indicated something else, but for the sake of clarity, I will write about everything. >Newag president Zbigniew Konieczek said that "no evidence was provided that our company intentionally installed the faulty software. In our opinion, the truth may be completely different—that, for example, the competition interfered with the software."
  - hifromwork 3y ago
    Which is obviously bullshit made up by the PR agency they hired, designed to muddy the waters. For example, researchers dumped the Train's firmware (in presence of third party witnesses) before and after sending it to the Newag's service, and found that the a backdoor code was recompiled and updated there.
- aftbit 3y ago
  Of course, because we all know that only the manufacturer of such a complicated device can be trusted to maintain it. Oh wait, maintenance of trains is a competitive process? The manufacturer provides a 20,000 page maintenance specific manual? Maybe trains really are simpler than iPhones. /s Parent comment is really an indication that society has lost the plot when it comes to ownership. The trains do not belong to the manufacturer after sale. They can't introduce anti-competitive code and pretend that users want it, like phone companies can.
- otikik 3y ago
  That would make sense if we were talking about something that changes dramatically over time; like a human heart for transplants. Or a nuclear fission core without its carbon bars. But trains don’t change significantly in a 10-day period. I doubt they degrade much after a full year, even. They need to be sturdy.
- elteto 3y ago
  "Hey, car 1812 needs a new restroom toilet and a couple of new seats." "Lead time on the toilet is 21 days from the manufacturer." "Uff, 21 days? That's more than 10! We will have to junk the whole car."
JKCalhoun 3y ago
It's like the code was designed to get my wife on my case after, "Honey, don't worry, I can fix it myself and save a bundle not having to go to the dealership." "Told you you would make it worse" incoming.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jcul 3y ago
I seem to remember from the original publication that the train would break down if it spent 10 days idle in some spot, away from a station. I guess the logic being that it could be an unknown service location.
- fransje26 3y ago
  They were actively comparing the GPS position of the train to the known location of the workshops of their competitors.

by cs702 3y ago

> A condition has been written in the computer code to disable the ability to run a train if it spends at least 10 days in one of these workshops. Wow, that's just... so wrong.

JonChesterfield 3y ago

Uh, maybe not. These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch.

hutzlibu 3y ago
Was that sarcasm?
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  No sarcasm, just in total disagreement with the (initial/apparent) HN consensus. I've put a top level comment which is hopefully clearer.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    You are also disagreeing with the owner and operator of the train, who is responsible for its safe operation.
indymike 3y ago
> These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. This makes little sense. It's pretty reasonable that any machine that is sent for repair may take longer than expected in the workshop. Parts availability for one. Also, manpower shortages, scheduling (we don't need it back until next month) and so on all make this "heuristic" more likely be a scam. This idea that the manufacturer is entitled to a lifetime stream of repair revenue has to stop. I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck.
- riskable 3y ago
  > I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck. Yeah if you're going to try to pull a scam like that the US is not your best option: https://nypost.com/2022/12/27/texas-mechanic-executed-over-500-repair-bill-family/ https://nypost.com/2022/12/27/texas-mechanic-executed-over-5... https://www.thetrucker.com/trucking-news/the-nation/pennsylvania-dump-truck-driver-allegedly-kills-mechanic-with-rig-over-bill https://www.thetrucker.com/trucking-news/the-nation/pennsylv... https://apnews.com/article/auto-shop-shooting-florida-c4d45f917e3925e32327effa1e94dcfa https://apnews.com/article/auto-shop-shooting-florida-c4d45f... If you just search "truck owner murders mechanic" you get tons of unique results.
  - verall 3y ago
    The top comments on that nypost article are insane, blaming the victim for probably doing "unauthorized repairs", and saying that the "southern border" is at fault. Wow.
    - bigbillheck 3y ago
      > and saying that the "southern border" is at fault There's people posting like that here on HN.
      - labster 3y ago
        Nah, the Canadians on HN are too nice to blame us.
  - donkeyd 3y ago
    I feel like blaming guns might upset some people, but I don't feel like this type of thing happens as much in the rest of the western world, where gun laws are typically a lot stricter.
    - hackideiomat 3y ago
CrazyStat 3y ago
No, absolutely not. (1) This was scheduled maintenance service, not a quick repair. Maintenance is complicated and is expected to take more than 10 days: > Maintenance a train is a complicated affair – it has to be taken apart, the parts sent to the various manufacturers, checked, sent back, the train put back together again and tested. The SPS carries out the maintenance procedures according to the relevant maintenance manual (some 20,000 pages) provided by the manufacturer, but the train does not start after being put together. From [1]. (2) If this was a legitimate check then there should be a legible error code instead of the train randomly locking up with no explanation why. This was clearly designed to sabotage competing maintenance service companies. [1] https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/ https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavywei...
hutzlibu 3y ago
Ok so no sarcasm, well, there are many reasons a train can spend a long time in the workshop: Complete checkup takes time, or one important mechanic is sick, delaying things or whatever. It is not the responsibility of the manufactor anymore. (A different company has the official service contract.) If you have other informations pls share.
- p_l 3y ago
  In at least two cases, the train was simply unused for 10 days for unrelated reasons. After which the two specific trains this happened to "gained" GPS lockout.
dogleash 3y ago
> These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. I know HN is a great place to practice PR-speak, but could you please stop fucking with the gullible people?
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  The words were chosen to indicate uncertainty on my part. A train parked in a repair depot for a fortnight triggering a need for more checks before putting it in service? I can totally imagine that spec being signed off in meetings. Fortunately the voting system on here does an excellent job of hiding unpopular thoughts so I doubt I've confused anyone.
  - dcow 3y ago
    You’re just pushing a pretty blatantly uninformed opinion supporting a frankly indefensible position. My car had minor collision damage and it took the manufacture’s 1st party service center 3 weeks to fix it. The assumption that manufacturers are uniquely positioned to repair their products is a poisonous tactic being used by insidious players to discredit right to repair.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    This is stretching my sarcasm meter to the breaking point, either you are very good at deadpanning or you are trying really hard to muddy waters that are crystal clear. If the former, well played.
lostlogin 3y ago
That’s not a long outage. If someone decided to paint it, the clean, prep and paint could take that long. And now you have a dead train.
stonemetal12 3y ago
The manufacture's current position is someone hacked their systems and changed the code so that it would make them a lot of money, they totally didn't do that. >"The president of Newag contacted me," Cieszyński wrote. "He claims that Newag fell victim to cybercriminals and it was not an intentional action by the company. The analysis I saw indicated something else, but for the sake of clarity, I will write about everything. >Newag president Zbigniew Konieczek said that "no evidence was provided that our company intentionally installed the faulty software. In our opinion, the truth may be completely different—that, for example, the competition interfered with the software."
- hifromwork 3y ago
  Which is obviously bullshit made up by the PR agency they hired, designed to muddy the waters. For example, researchers dumped the Train's firmware (in presence of third party witnesses) before and after sending it to the Newag's service, and found that the a backdoor code was recompiled and updated there.
aftbit 3y ago
Of course, because we all know that only the manufacturer of such a complicated device can be trusted to maintain it. Oh wait, maintenance of trains is a competitive process? The manufacturer provides a 20,000 page maintenance specific manual? Maybe trains really are simpler than iPhones. /s Parent comment is really an indication that society has lost the plot when it comes to ownership. The trains do not belong to the manufacturer after sale. They can't introduce anti-competitive code and pretend that users want it, like phone companies can.
otikik 3y ago
That would make sense if we were talking about something that changes dramatically over time; like a human heart for transplants. Or a nuclear fission core without its carbon bars. But trains don’t change significantly in a 10-day period. I doubt they degrade much after a full year, even. They need to be sturdy.
elteto 3y ago
"Hey, car 1812 needs a new restroom toilet and a couple of new seats." "Lead time on the toilet is 21 days from the manufacturer." "Uff, 21 days? That's more than 10! We will have to junk the whole car."

JKCalhoun 3y ago

It's like the code was designed to get my wife on my case after, "Honey, don't worry, I can fix it myself and save a bundle not having to go to the dealership." "Told you you would make it worse" incoming.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jcul 3y ago

I seem to remember from the original publication that the train would break down if it spent 10 days idle in some spot, away from a station. I guess the logic being that it could be an unknown service location.

fransje26 3y ago
They were actively comparing the GPS position of the train to the known location of the workshops of their competitors.