6 ms·

Here is a better write-up of the story: https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/ https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-f

Here is a better write-up of the story: https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/ https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavywei...

KolmogorovComp 3y ago
And the relevant HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 5 days ago, 289 comments
- manuel_w 3y ago
  Which again is a successor to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 8 days ago, 357 comments
Yizahi 3y ago
That headline was so misleading. I'm interested in the topic and saw that link on HN, but scrolled away because dieselgate is "obviously" about emissions and I assumed that nothing new will come from the article about train emissions, we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. They should have mentioned something about vendor lock or right to repair in the headline.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  > I assumed that nothing new will come from the article about train emissions, we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. ... Eh? Trains, to be clear, are not big polluters; not sure what made you think that.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    Especially since these trains in particular are electric.
  - Yizahi 3y ago
    In absolute values, not relative per ton of cargo or compared to other modes of transport. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, for that I'm sorry. I do support trains everywhere and think they are the best land transport we have by far. I was merely thinking that a diesel engine is a diesel, even if a train vendor fudge the emissions somehow (hence the reference to the Volkswagen dieselgate, I thought it meant) it wouldn't matter much on the planetary scale. Thus not particularly interesting. But instead this was all about electronics and malicious locks, which wasn't apparent from the headline.
    - aftbit 3y ago
      IMO this is really what Dieselgate was about. Not specifically fudging the emissions, but hiding secret code to do so during specific test profiles, then lying about it afterwards. Analogously, these trains hid secret code to disable them after being taken to certain locations.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > ... Eh? Trains, to be clear, are not big polluters; not sure what made you think that. Modern diesel engines yes, but the old ones? They got barely any emission controls, only for locomotives built after the 90s there is regulations [1]. On top of that comes brake dust [2] which is only irrelevant in powered-car electric passenger trains with regenerative braking - every other train releases insane amounts of it, no surprise given that the brakes have power outputs in the megawatt range. [1] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-locomotives https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin... [2] https://www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/reducing-brake-dust-to-improve-air-quality/57959.article https://www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/reducing-brake-dust-...
    - dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
      Right above you it explicitly states the trains are •electric• and not diesel. RTFA
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        As said: Electric trains are not emissions-free due to the brake dust.
        lillecarl 3y ago
        By that measure nothing is emissions free, me walking down the road will generate a bit of rubber / asphalt dust. Also regenerative braking... Trains are amazing
        jacquesm 3y ago
        What is it with this thread? You're the second person to bring up the most wild stuff. When I walk I kick up dust. And I breathe. I guess I'm also not emissions free even when I cycle? Brake dust and all that?
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      Many trains have rheostatic brakes, where the kinetic energy is converted to heat using a bank of resistors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking
- londons_explore 3y ago
  > we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. There is a lot of variation in train emissions, but most modern ones (electrified) have minimal emissions - and far lower than electric cars even, per passenger mile or per tonnage transported. Even the oldest ones in common use (diesel electric) are more efficient per ton-mile and passenger mile than a typical car.
  - Yizahi 3y ago
    I've tried to explain myself in the comment below, sorry for the confusion.
cs702 3y ago
> A condition has been written in the computer code to disable the ability to run a train if it spends at least 10 days in one of these workshops. Wow, that's just... so wrong.
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  Uh, maybe not. These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Was that sarcasm?
    - JonChesterfield 3y ago
      No sarcasm, just in total disagreement with the (initial/apparent) HN consensus. I've put a top level comment which is hopefully clearer.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        You are also disagreeing with the owner and operator of the train, who is responsible for its safe operation.
  - indymike 3y ago
    > These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. This makes little sense. It's pretty reasonable that any machine that is sent for repair may take longer than expected in the workshop. Parts availability for one. Also, manpower shortages, scheduling (we don't need it back until next month) and so on all make this "heuristic" more likely be a scam. This idea that the manufacturer is entitled to a lifetime stream of repair revenue has to stop. I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck.
nmeofthestate 3y ago
The OP article is worth reading for the brazen blustering statements made by Newag management, I paraphrase "you can't prove that the software found on our trains that sabotages our competition was installed by us!"

Here is a better write-up of the story: https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/ https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavywei...

KolmogorovComp 3y ago

And the relevant HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 5 days ago, 289 comments

manuel_w 3y ago
Which again is a successor to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 8 days ago, 357 comments

Yizahi 3y ago

That headline was so misleading. I'm interested in the topic and saw that link on HN, but scrolled away because dieselgate is "obviously" about emissions and I assumed that nothing new will come from the article about train emissions, we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. They should have mentioned something about vendor lock or right to repair in the headline.

rsynnott 3y ago
> I assumed that nothing new will come from the article about train emissions, we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. ... Eh? Trains, to be clear, are not big polluters; not sure what made you think that.
- krisoft 3y ago
  Especially since these trains in particular are electric.
- Yizahi 3y ago
  In absolute values, not relative per ton of cargo or compared to other modes of transport. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, for that I'm sorry. I do support trains everywhere and think they are the best land transport we have by far. I was merely thinking that a diesel engine is a diesel, even if a train vendor fudge the emissions somehow (hence the reference to the Volkswagen dieselgate, I thought it meant) it wouldn't matter much on the planetary scale. Thus not particularly interesting. But instead this was all about electronics and malicious locks, which wasn't apparent from the headline.
  - aftbit 3y ago
    IMO this is really what Dieselgate was about. Not specifically fudging the emissions, but hiding secret code to do so during specific test profiles, then lying about it afterwards. Analogously, these trains hid secret code to disable them after being taken to certain locations.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > ... Eh? Trains, to be clear, are not big polluters; not sure what made you think that. Modern diesel engines yes, but the old ones? They got barely any emission controls, only for locomotives built after the 90s there is regulations [1]. On top of that comes brake dust [2] which is only irrelevant in powered-car electric passenger trains with regenerative braking - every other train releases insane amounts of it, no surprise given that the brakes have power outputs in the megawatt range. [1] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-locomotives https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin... [2] https://www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/reducing-brake-dust-to-improve-air-quality/57959.article https://www.railwaygazette.com/vehicles/reducing-brake-dust-...
  - dirtyhippiefree 3y ago
    Right above you it explicitly states the trains are •electric• and not diesel. RTFA
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      As said: Electric trains are not emissions-free due to the brake dust.
      - lillecarl 3y ago
        By that measure nothing is emissions free, me walking down the road will generate a bit of rubber / asphalt dust. Also regenerative braking... Trains are amazing
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        What is it with this thread? You're the second person to bring up the most wild stuff. When I walk I kick up dust. And I breathe. I guess I'm also not emissions free even when I cycle? Brake dust and all that?
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Many trains have rheostatic brakes, where the kinetic energy is converted to heat using a bank of resistors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking
londons_explore 3y ago
> we all know already they are big polluters but we kinda have to deal with it. There is a lot of variation in train emissions, but most modern ones (electrified) have minimal emissions - and far lower than electric cars even, per passenger mile or per tonnage transported. Even the oldest ones in common use (diesel electric) are more efficient per ton-mile and passenger mile than a typical car.
- Yizahi 3y ago
  I've tried to explain myself in the comment below, sorry for the confusion.

cs702 3y ago

> A condition has been written in the computer code to disable the ability to run a train if it spends at least 10 days in one of these workshops. Wow, that's just... so wrong.

JonChesterfield 3y ago
Uh, maybe not. These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  Was that sarcasm?
  - JonChesterfield 3y ago
    No sarcasm, just in total disagreement with the (initial/apparent) HN consensus. I've put a top level comment which is hopefully clearer.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      You are also disagreeing with the owner and operator of the train, who is responsible for its safe operation.
- indymike 3y ago
  > These things are safety critical and ten days in a workshop is probably a reasonable heuristic for this thing has to be taken out of service and recommissioned from scratch. This makes little sense. It's pretty reasonable that any machine that is sent for repair may take longer than expected in the workshop. Parts availability for one. Also, manpower shortages, scheduling (we don't need it back until next month) and so on all make this "heuristic" more likely be a scam. This idea that the manufacturer is entitled to a lifetime stream of repair revenue has to stop. I shudder to think what would happen in the US if an auto manufacturer tried this heuristic on the average owner of a pickup truck.

nmeofthestate 3y ago

The OP article is worth reading for the brazen blustering statements made by Newag management, I paraphrase "you can't prove that the software found on our trains that sabotages our competition was installed by us!"