6 ms·

I feel like there used to be somewhat of an unwritten social contract about things like layoffs before the holidays. Seems exceptionally cruel. Honestly I feel

by mcntsh 3y ago

I feel like there used to be somewhat of an unwritten social contract about things like layoffs before the holidays. Seems exceptionally cruel. Honestly I feel sick to my stomach when I think about it.

happytoexplain 3y ago
The imbalance of power is simply too great. Even for high-value positions, and even in times of high job availability, employers can always afford (by every conceivable definition of "afford") to harm employees more than employees can afford to harm employers. Edit: A healthy society is a high-trust society where the employee-employer relationship is more balanced due to the regular old humanity that you would expect by default from humans, rather than pure economics. You can't regulate the fundamentals of societal health. When people have less and less cultural attachment to each other and to the societies in which they operate; and less and less respect for the idea of plain humanity; this is the result. The US seems to have been historically above average in this regard, but is coming down fast. A few European countries seem to be at the top of this (highly subjective) ranking.
- lukev 3y ago
  Unless employees unionize.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    Exactly. Unions exist for exactly this purpose and have legal powers no employee will ever have.
  - happytoexplain 3y ago
    Yes, though it really only helps so much with the broader problem.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      It's the main building block of any broader solution. You need to have large, pro-worker organizations in play in order to fight for large scale change, whether that's in a figurative sense in the courts and legislature, or in a literal sense, in the streets of Krakow or Barcelona.
  - jessehorne 3y ago
    Let's do it. My contact information is in my description.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://code-cwa.org/ https://code-cwa.org/ https://code-cwa.org/organize https://code-cwa.org/organize
  - outworlder 3y ago
    There's been a lot of effort to demonize unions. Many employees won't even try because they think "unions are bad" without ever been in one.
  - itsoktocry 3y ago
    Everyone loves unions during layoffs. But when times are flush they don't want their bonus hindered or to "protect bad apples" or "lazy workers". Being in a union involves give and take.
    - vasco 3y ago
      I was curious so I went to see what is there in terms of data and found: 1. "Firms and Layoffs: The Impact of Unionization on Involuntary Job Loss" - (2003 with data from 1997) https://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/03-09.html https://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/03-09.html > Results show that the impact of unionization is not significant except for (1) establishments that operate in the non-manufacturing sector; and (2) establishments operating in industries that have major collective bargaining agreements which contain moderate employment security provisions. Under those conditions, unionization decreases layoff rates; otherwise, unionization has no effect on layoff rates. Does anyone have anything more recent about this?
      - anamexis 3y ago
        Point number 2 in particular strikes me as circular - unions did not impact layoff rates except in industries where the unions protected against layoffs.
    - lukewrites 3y ago
      This understanding of unions is as common as it is wrong. A union allows workers to negotiate contracts, meaning workers can have a say in how performance is assessed and how things like bonuses are handed out. I am in a non-union workspace. There's no transparency on how bonuses or stock refreshers are handed out. A union contract could codify it. The owner class wants workers to think unions will hurt our earnings because when workers are structurally unable to shape company policy the bosses can do whatever they want...and what they want is to maximize profits. (Like Elon Musk said: You don't need a union, I'll put in an soft serve machine for you.)
  - lnsru 3y ago
    I can repeat as long as one needs. I work in Germany. Every big company is unionized. And guess what!? Bosses told, that 20% of the company will be laid off and it was ok for all union members. Packages were offered in few rounds. Home office forbidden. I didn’t got package, I left for a company with liberal home office ruling. Unions are beautiful cosmetics. When layoff happens it happens just like that.
    - Tainnor 3y ago
      Even for non-unionised people, labour protection laws in Germany are completely incomparable to the US: 1. Mandatory notice periods (3 months is customary, mimumum 1 month) 2. "Social selection", i.e. you're not allowed to lay off a pregnant person etc. unless you have demonstrated that there were no other people you could have let go instead 3. There needs to be cause. Downsizing can still mean you get laid off, but you can't just fire a team or an individual because you don't like them etc. Of course, if you left a company because you didn't agree to their rules instead of being laid off, none of these protections apply to you - why would they?
      - lnsru 3y ago
        Not completely true. It depends on company size. Big ones have always good lawyers for these times
        Tainnor 3y ago
        The law is incredibly clear on these things, lawyers can't help you. The only thing they can do is confuse people who don't actually know the law and their legal rights - that does sometimes happen, but I'd say a small company is just as likely to do so.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Yeah, employees are kinda unfirable which has good sides and bad sides. People don't have to worry about their existencr, but that also means you don't need to do more than the bare minimum. Which many do, and in some way it's a comfortable lifestyle. OTOH you won't find any German companies paying close to what Netflix pays.
- Findeton 3y ago
  Unless employees save up money, then you are always prepared.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    Still harms the employee. Preparation isn’t free, and even if you’re prepared, you’re still harmed. This isn’t some moral lesson on independence and discipline. Companies don’t need any single employee as much as that employee needs their job.
    - Findeton 3y ago
      You think you are harmed but if you recognized the alternative you wouldn’t be saying that. Countries with higher protections for employees have WAY lower salaries for everyone.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        What if I told you salaries could go up if shareholder profits and management pay packages went down? You're operating from the idea that people with outsized pay packages are exceptional, when more often then not, they are lucky people benefiting from a dysfunctional system. Certainly, skill is involved, but you are weighing it too much from an outcome perspective. I am a lucky person, but I see it for what it is, not that I am special or exceptional. A lottery ticket is not something you can base broad policy on, most especially considering the aggregate harm being incurred. If you are not interested in a union, that is fine, it only takes a majority to win a union and 30% to hold a vote. Do you think 51% are making outsized comp and vote no? I'm interested to find out too as someone very curious. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/your-right-to-form-a-union https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em... https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-americans-support-unions https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-a... https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-closing-gender-education-and-ideological-divides-behind-gen-zs-union-movement/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-closing-gender-...
- ycdxvjp 3y ago
  Tech that works over time is supposed to reduce the Price of a good or service. Tech workers and their lifestyles are not sustainable if the Tech actually does that.
- pizzafeelsright 3y ago
  I think the power balance is fine compared to what once was or even could be. Do you give Netflix 180 days notice or additional payments when you quit their service? I am a W2/FTE and I have a job that I can leave with zero notice or consequence. If I was to get laid off I would imagine I would get some type of severance - even if only two weeks as that would be more than agreed upon. There is no whip if I fail. No debt incurred if I fail to deliver on my "promises". I could definitely harm my employer with substantial consequences and I think the worst they could do is report my activities to the authorities.
Tao3300 3y ago
If they couldn't make it a couple more weeks without going insolvent, then Netflix is too far gone for me to want to commit to relying on them for a subscription.
jejeyyy77 3y ago
If you act as if your employer has your best interest in mind, you're going to be in for a bad time. You're the CEO of your life, your employer is a client, and your job is a business deal. My advice is to do independent contracting for some time and you will have a better handle on negotiating and navigating the dynamics.
whalesalad 3y ago
The holidays coincide with the end of the year.
- benkillin 3y ago
  not fiscal year
  - jsnell 3y ago
    Netflix's fiscal year aligns with the calendar year.
sneak 3y ago
I don’t agree. A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow. If the month of the year in which you lose your six figure engineering job is a personal factor: you are very plainly saving too little, spending too much, or both. In this economy you should have a minimum of 4-6 months of expenses in savings in cash.
- Tao3300 3y ago
  > A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow. This is rolling over in submission for evil men, thinly veiled in the language of badass cynicism.
  - Findeton 3y ago
    Submission is living day to day without proper planning and hoping and praying that things will always be as good as yesterday.
- Findeton 3y ago
  I fully agree with that, it should be a very high priority to have 6 months of savings before you go on holiday or to a restaurant or anything non essential.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  This is also on the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629355 Some of the people being fired will have been at Netflix less than a year and 6 figure of college debt and a hard-to-break lease on a $3000/month apartment -- do you expect them to have 6 months of salary saved?
- jimbob45 3y ago
  I think it's less about the cash than the PTO. People plan ahead for time off during the holidays. If instead you have to spend the holidays frantically looking for employment, then you're massively stressed during what should be a time of relaxation. The stress placed on the employee simply isn't proportionate to how little it would take for the company to wait two more weeks to lay people off (or plan ahead and lay them off earlier).
ysofunny 3y ago
i think most countries have to pay you when they fire you like that
- 8372049 3y ago
  In Norway you need to have a (mutual) period of notice of at least 1 month, starting at the change of month. (I.e. getting fired now means working until at least 31 Jan). Contracts usually increase this to three months. This is usually beneficial for both parties, as it gives the employer time to find replacements and the employee time to find a new job. But we generally have far, far better worker's rights than the US. https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62/KAPITTEL_17#%C2%A715-3 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62/KAPITTEL_1...
crazygringo 3y ago
There's never a good time. It's always cruel. Doing them on Dec 24, yes that would be a dick move to ruin Christmas day itself. But mid-December isn't worse than any other time. People get severance so it's not like kids are going without presents -- these aren't hourly laborers we're talking about. And you can use the holidays to take some time to think about your next plan of action.
- cableshaft 3y ago
  Depends on the company. A lot of companies only give a few weeks, if any, so you're scrambling for a new job in the middle of the holidays, when most companies aren't hiring anyway. Netflix is different though. They tend to give generous severance packages.
rchaud 3y ago
The unwritten social contract is with shareholders. A layoff announcement is like a Christmas gift in a financial system that rewards workforce cuts.
- sitkack 3y ago
  Blood sacrifice to drive up stock prices, that hopefully stay high into the new year, that can pay the taxes on last years gains.
csours 3y ago
There's no good way and no good time to fire someone. A decent exit package can soften the blow.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by mcntsh 3y ago

happytoexplain 3y ago

The imbalance of power is simply too great. Even for high-value positions, and even in times of high job availability, employers can always afford (by every conceivable definition of "afford") to harm employees more than employees can afford to harm employers. Edit: A healthy society is a high-trust society where the employee-employer relationship is more balanced due to the regular old humanity that you would expect by default from humans, rather than pure economics. You can't regulate the fundamentals of societal health. When people have less and less cultural attachment to each other and to the societies in which they operate; and less and less respect for the idea of plain humanity; this is the result. The US seems to have been historically above average in this regard, but is coming down fast. A few European countries seem to be at the top of this (highly subjective) ranking.

lukev 3y ago
Unless employees unionize.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  Exactly. Unions exist for exactly this purpose and have legal powers no employee will ever have.
- happytoexplain 3y ago
  Yes, though it really only helps so much with the broader problem.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    It's the main building block of any broader solution. You need to have large, pro-worker organizations in play in order to fight for large scale change, whether that's in a figurative sense in the courts and legislature, or in a literal sense, in the streets of Krakow or Barcelona.
- jessehorne 3y ago
  Let's do it. My contact information is in my description.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://code-cwa.org/ https://code-cwa.org/ https://code-cwa.org/organize https://code-cwa.org/organize
- outworlder 3y ago
  There's been a lot of effort to demonize unions. Many employees won't even try because they think "unions are bad" without ever been in one.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  Everyone loves unions during layoffs. But when times are flush they don't want their bonus hindered or to "protect bad apples" or "lazy workers". Being in a union involves give and take.
  - vasco 3y ago
    I was curious so I went to see what is there in terms of data and found: 1. "Firms and Layoffs: The Impact of Unionization on Involuntary Job Loss" - (2003 with data from 1997) https://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/03-09.html https://ideas.repec.org/p/cen/wpaper/03-09.html > Results show that the impact of unionization is not significant except for (1) establishments that operate in the non-manufacturing sector; and (2) establishments operating in industries that have major collective bargaining agreements which contain moderate employment security provisions. Under those conditions, unionization decreases layoff rates; otherwise, unionization has no effect on layoff rates. Does anyone have anything more recent about this?
    - anamexis 3y ago
      Point number 2 in particular strikes me as circular - unions did not impact layoff rates except in industries where the unions protected against layoffs.
  - lukewrites 3y ago
    This understanding of unions is as common as it is wrong. A union allows workers to negotiate contracts, meaning workers can have a say in how performance is assessed and how things like bonuses are handed out. I am in a non-union workspace. There's no transparency on how bonuses or stock refreshers are handed out. A union contract could codify it. The owner class wants workers to think unions will hurt our earnings because when workers are structurally unable to shape company policy the bosses can do whatever they want...and what they want is to maximize profits. (Like Elon Musk said: You don't need a union, I'll put in an soft serve machine for you.)
- lnsru 3y ago
  I can repeat as long as one needs. I work in Germany. Every big company is unionized. And guess what!? Bosses told, that 20% of the company will be laid off and it was ok for all union members. Packages were offered in few rounds. Home office forbidden. I didn’t got package, I left for a company with liberal home office ruling. Unions are beautiful cosmetics. When layoff happens it happens just like that.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Even for non-unionised people, labour protection laws in Germany are completely incomparable to the US: 1. Mandatory notice periods (3 months is customary, mimumum 1 month) 2. "Social selection", i.e. you're not allowed to lay off a pregnant person etc. unless you have demonstrated that there were no other people you could have let go instead 3. There needs to be cause. Downsizing can still mean you get laid off, but you can't just fire a team or an individual because you don't like them etc. Of course, if you left a company because you didn't agree to their rules instead of being laid off, none of these protections apply to you - why would they?
    - lnsru 3y ago
      Not completely true. It depends on company size. Big ones have always good lawyers for these times
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        The law is incredibly clear on these things, lawyers can't help you. The only thing they can do is confuse people who don't actually know the law and their legal rights - that does sometimes happen, but I'd say a small company is just as likely to do so.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Yeah, employees are kinda unfirable which has good sides and bad sides. People don't have to worry about their existencr, but that also means you don't need to do more than the bare minimum. Which many do, and in some way it's a comfortable lifestyle. OTOH you won't find any German companies paying close to what Netflix pays.
Findeton 3y ago
Unless employees save up money, then you are always prepared.
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  Still harms the employee. Preparation isn’t free, and even if you’re prepared, you’re still harmed. This isn’t some moral lesson on independence and discipline. Companies don’t need any single employee as much as that employee needs their job.
  - Findeton 3y ago
    You think you are harmed but if you recognized the alternative you wouldn’t be saying that. Countries with higher protections for employees have WAY lower salaries for everyone.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      What if I told you salaries could go up if shareholder profits and management pay packages went down? You're operating from the idea that people with outsized pay packages are exceptional, when more often then not, they are lucky people benefiting from a dysfunctional system. Certainly, skill is involved, but you are weighing it too much from an outcome perspective. I am a lucky person, but I see it for what it is, not that I am special or exceptional. A lottery ticket is not something you can base broad policy on, most especially considering the aggregate harm being incurred. If you are not interested in a union, that is fine, it only takes a majority to win a union and 30% to hold a vote. Do you think 51% are making outsized comp and vote no? I'm interested to find out too as someone very curious. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/your-right-to-form-a-union https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em... https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/what-we-do/conduct-elections https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-americans-support-unions https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-a... https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-closing-gender-education-and-ideological-divides-behind-gen-zs-union-movement/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-closing-gender-...
ycdxvjp 3y ago
Tech that works over time is supposed to reduce the Price of a good or service. Tech workers and their lifestyles are not sustainable if the Tech actually does that.
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
I think the power balance is fine compared to what once was or even could be. Do you give Netflix 180 days notice or additional payments when you quit their service? I am a W2/FTE and I have a job that I can leave with zero notice or consequence. If I was to get laid off I would imagine I would get some type of severance - even if only two weeks as that would be more than agreed upon. There is no whip if I fail. No debt incurred if I fail to deliver on my "promises". I could definitely harm my employer with substantial consequences and I think the worst they could do is report my activities to the authorities.

Tao3300 3y ago

If they couldn't make it a couple more weeks without going insolvent, then Netflix is too far gone for me to want to commit to relying on them for a subscription.

jejeyyy77 3y ago

If you act as if your employer has your best interest in mind, you're going to be in for a bad time. You're the CEO of your life, your employer is a client, and your job is a business deal. My advice is to do independent contracting for some time and you will have a better handle on negotiating and navigating the dynamics.

whalesalad 3y ago

The holidays coincide with the end of the year.

benkillin 3y ago
not fiscal year
- jsnell 3y ago
  Netflix's fiscal year aligns with the calendar year.

sneak 3y ago

I don’t agree. A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow. If the month of the year in which you lose your six figure engineering job is a personal factor: you are very plainly saving too little, spending too much, or both. In this economy you should have a minimum of 4-6 months of expenses in savings in cash.

Tao3300 3y ago
> A job today is no guarantee or even context for a reasonable assumption for a job tomorrow. This is rolling over in submission for evil men, thinly veiled in the language of badass cynicism.
- Findeton 3y ago
  Submission is living day to day without proper planning and hoping and praying that things will always be as good as yesterday.
Findeton 3y ago
I fully agree with that, it should be a very high priority to have 6 months of savings before you go on holiday or to a restaurant or anything non essential.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
This is also on the front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629355 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38629355 Some of the people being fired will have been at Netflix less than a year and 6 figure of college debt and a hard-to-break lease on a $3000/month apartment -- do you expect them to have 6 months of salary saved?
jimbob45 3y ago
I think it's less about the cash than the PTO. People plan ahead for time off during the holidays. If instead you have to spend the holidays frantically looking for employment, then you're massively stressed during what should be a time of relaxation. The stress placed on the employee simply isn't proportionate to how little it would take for the company to wait two more weeks to lay people off (or plan ahead and lay them off earlier).

ysofunny 3y ago

i think most countries have to pay you when they fire you like that

8372049 3y ago
In Norway you need to have a (mutual) period of notice of at least 1 month, starting at the change of month. (I.e. getting fired now means working until at least 31 Jan). Contracts usually increase this to three months. This is usually beneficial for both parties, as it gives the employer time to find replacements and the employee time to find a new job. But we generally have far, far better worker's rights than the US. https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62/KAPITTEL_17#%C2%A715-3 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NLE/lov/2005-06-17-62/KAPITTEL_1...

crazygringo 3y ago

There's never a good time. It's always cruel. Doing them on Dec 24, yes that would be a dick move to ruin Christmas day itself. But mid-December isn't worse than any other time. People get severance so it's not like kids are going without presents -- these aren't hourly laborers we're talking about. And you can use the holidays to take some time to think about your next plan of action.

cableshaft 3y ago
Depends on the company. A lot of companies only give a few weeks, if any, so you're scrambling for a new job in the middle of the holidays, when most companies aren't hiring anyway. Netflix is different though. They tend to give generous severance packages.

rchaud 3y ago

The unwritten social contract is with shareholders. A layoff announcement is like a Christmas gift in a financial system that rewards workforce cuts.

sitkack 3y ago
Blood sacrifice to drive up stock prices, that hopefully stay high into the new year, that can pay the taxes on last years gains.

csours 3y ago

There's no good way and no good time to fire someone. A decent exit package can soften the blow.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]