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Polish Hackers that repaired DRM trains threatened by train company
- bell-cot 3y agoEventually, the article discusses the murky legal status of such hacking in the EU. It'd be nice to imagine that, for large industrial equipment, buyers could squeeze DRM-happy suppliers out of existence. Vs. in reality...
- p_l 3y agoThe manufacturer is trying to evoke "murky status". But both national law states it's OK, and there is a ruling by Court of Justice of the European Union stating that Reverse Engineering done by owner even of a program license (EULA style) to make it work or fix errors is legal.
- ferdek 3y agoNot only that, the article being from American media, even with the footnote, the commenters, miss the whole point about copyright being exclusively American concept and we don’t have this in EU. We have IP and authorship rights that work differently. See last part for explanation: https://thehftguy.com/2020/09/15/french-judge-rules-gpl-license-to-be-inapplicable-in-french-copyright-court/ https://thehftguy.com/2020/09/15/french-judge-rules-gpl-lice...
- matkoniecz 3y agosince when copyright does not exist in Europe?
- ferdek 3y agoFor instance, in Poland (which is in Europe) you have all rights to create copies of software, music, movies, for your personal use after paying for the original copy. You cannot do this under copyright which strictly forbids you from creating copies of the original media. Copy-right, as a right to create copies. In this meaning, copyright is not the same as authorship rights, which is a basis of intellectual property protection in Europe. Similarly for software patents, they do not work in EU.
- matkoniecz 3y ago> you cannot do this under copyright which strictly forbids you from creating copies of the original media. copyright having exceptions does not mean that copyright does not exist unless you claim that copyright does not exist in USA because they have fair use?
- p_l 3y agoIt's badly expressed (and not exactly relevant to the train lockout issue), but no, Copyright as in the american sense does not exist in Poland, and similarly in many other European countries. That's why we have the relevant legal act discuss separate aspects of "moral" and "financial" "Author's rights" to a creation, instead of just singular "copyright", and why American-style "public domain" does not exist in Polish legal system, or that of many other EU countries (US' style public-domain involves effectively losing all rights to the creation, including moral ones, whereas those are non-dismissible, non-transferable and permament in Polish law). The exact way things differ would probably require a philosopher and a lawyer to discuss differences of.
- matkoniecz 3y agoIt was introductory lecture not treated really seriously, but what was described to me is that there is (a) copyright (b) moral rights which are separate. Maybe it was badly described or I misremember what I learned decade ago.
- btilly 3y agoI suspect that the legal differences are less than claimed. The first test of an open source license in court was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobsen_v._Katzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobsen_v._Katzer. It was initially lost on a somewhat similar argument. Namely that it was a contract, not a copyright license, and then was an unenforceable contract and therefore invalid. This decision was reversed on appeal. I have no particular reason to believe that the first French judge to rule on an open source license did a better job than the first US judge to do the same. Both ruled against the license.
- uKVZe85V 3y agoThat was 2020. The case evolved in favor of the GPL, see e.g. https://www.april.org/violation-d-une-licence-libre-entr-ouvert-fonde-a-poursuivre-orange-pour-contrefacon https://www.april.org/violation-d-une-licence-libre-entr-ouv...
- Avamander 3y agoIn some EU countries it's also legal to reverse engineer computer programs fully when compatibility with other computer systems is the goal. Without the need from any authorisation of the copyright holder and it doesn't have to be buggy or broken.
- 8372049 3y agoThat's EU-wide law, plus the EEA. We also have this right: The person having a right to use a copy of a computer program shall be entitled, without the authorisation of the rightholder, to observe, study or test the functioning of the program in order to determine the ideas and principles which underlie any element of the program if he does so while performing any of the acts of loading, displaying, running, transmitting or storing the program which he is entitled to do. Article 5(3) and 6. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009L0024 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32...
- Avamander 3y agoOh, I didn't know it was an EU-wide directive. Estonian copyright law has contained that paragraph since 1992.
- btilly 3y agoBut those articles in no way gives one the right to harm the rightholder's business practices. For example by exposing them to public criticism. That potential limitation is implied in both 5.3 and 6.2.a. I don't know what other provisions of EU law might apply here. But it is literally the job of the lawyers issuing the threats to find potential gotchas like that. I would assume that they are competent.
- bell-cot 3y ago> But in Europe, the legality of what Dragon Sector did is murkier. [...] Cory Doctorow explained in his excellent Pluralistic blog that Article 6 of Europe's 2001 Copyright and Information Society Directive is generally stricter on DRM circumvention than Section 1201 of the DMCA, and does not have a specific repair exemption. Because of this law, Doctorow told 404 Media that "there is now an extra layer of jeopardy for these researchers. They were brave to come forward..." If the law is huge and complex, and a large company wants to make your life hell...
- rjmunro 3y agoI don't think this is true. I think the legality of what they did is totally clear under article 5 & 6 of the EU Computer Programs Directive. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32009L0024 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32... Reverse Engineering (Decompiling) software that you own to fix errors and allow interoperability is explicitly allowed.
- bell-cot 3y agoI hope that you are correct. I fear that (allowing for the "someone with enough money and lawyers can make your life hell" effect) you are not.
- 6510 3y agoI think this should be filled under sabotage of critical infrastructure. It is either that or DRM means the OEM gets to remotely shut down entire train network whenever they like? Imagine the money one could make with such a service.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y agoFrom what I gathered in Polish media, the Dragon Sector's attorney has implied they are eyeing exploring this possibility legally.
- virtue3 3y agoyeah screw this. if they are claiming that they hacked their DRM they should absolutely counter sue that this DRM counts as sabotage and/or domestic terrorism. There was literally code in there that told the trains to stop working after X date if it sat still for X amount of time. That's bonkers. And criminal.
- ginko 3y agoIt's strange. Usually the competition for train contracts is quite fierce and train operators have a lot of power dictating terms. This is not some david vs goliath thing.
- bee_rider 3y agoTrains are often, somehow or another, public infrastructure. (In Poland it looks like they are run by state-owned companies, mostly?) Countries should work in the interest of their populations, so really we hope David vs Goliath here, except Goliath is the good guy and also hopefully wins.
- PeterisP 3y agoThis is a consequence of the train operator winning a court judgement to permit them to use third parties for servicing the trains, followed by "technical measures" of the manufacturer to cripple the trains if this was actually done.
- p_l 3y agoEuropean Railway Agency, through EU directives, secured unbundling of maintenance& repair operations from vendors. Vendors no longer are allowed to claim trade secrets or IP as reason for not providing complete and effective maintenance & repair documentation suitable for performing all levels of maintenance. Since then, MRO is purchased through separate tender process - and NEWAG didn't win several times.
- ginko 3y agoYeah, the more I look into this the more dire this looks for Newag.
- prmoustache 3y agoI don't think Newagg stands a chance. The hackers didn't hack a third party IT network/system. They hacked a train that was owned by the railway company, not Newagg.
- askvictor 3y agoThe legal system may be quite different in Poland to whereever you are (assuming it's not Poland). Also many products these days have a licence/EULA that supposedly prevents you doing certain things.
- p_l 3y agoSome railway specialist also noted that some of the trains that were publicly known to be part of this have explicit registrations that make the owners also fully in their right to decide about their maintenance.
- madaxe_again 3y agoThey have deep pockets - all they have to do is grind them down, and they win by default. What’s legal or not is practically irrelevant when you’re dealing with individuals vs a corporation.
- kragen 3y agothe railway company might also have deep pockets
- rich_sasha 3y agoIsn't disassembly illegal in EU, because [something something] IP yada yada? Still, to put such restrictions in code and threaten the people who found them with legal action... I'm not even sure how to describe it.
- kolinko 3y agoExactly opposite. EU high court ruled that you are free to decompile software to fix bugs etc. Also, in Poland at least, it used to be legal to even crack software that you own for the purpose of making backup copies etc (not sure how it is now) https://www.traple.pl/legalna-dekompilacja-programu-komputerowego-na-potrzeby-naprawy-bledow-przesadzona-przed-ts-ue-sprawa-top-system-c-13-20/ https://www.traple.pl/legalna-dekompilacja-programu-komputer... Article in polish, but you can auto-translate easily.
- gigel82 3y agoIf they get in trouble for repairing a goddamn train, what chance do we have to keep the right to repair our phones? I hate living in (techno)feudalism, I thought we moved past that...
- vorticalbox 3y agoNewagg are probably more concerned about the knock on their reputation and future sales than actually caring what the hackers did.
- quercusa 3y agoAs well they should be.
- noname120 3y agoTheir bellicose behavior will only further tarnish their reputation. And the Barbara Streisand effect will ensure that everyone knows about it. Not a very wise move in a liberalized European market where news travel fast and competition is ruthless. This time around corrupting the national politicians won't cut it to get the contracts — the European regulator is keeping a close eye on this and it's not known for being complacent with attempts to bypass its oversight.
- yread 3y agoWell, I, for one, surely won't be buying any trains from them!
- plagiarist 3y agoYou jest, but the odds are rapidly increasing that they encounter someone in charge of the purchasing decision who won't work with them on principle.
- UseStrict 3y agoI have friends who work indirectly in rail systems procurement in Canada. If they don't know about this already, they will soon from me.
- bluish29 3y ago> The trains also had a GSM telemetry unit that was broadcasting lock conditions, and in some cases appeared to be able to lock the train remotely. In what universe this is not sabotage?
- e2le 3y agoI think it's fair to say the manufacturer is intentionally introducing vulnerabilities to a nation's critical infrastructure. Is it possible for a sufficiently motivated actor to shutdown trains in Poland remotely? I'm doubtful the engineers used best practices when implementing such a function.
- WASDx 3y agoHide a GPS spoofer (illegal) at a central train station to make all trains believe they are at the forbidden workshop location and make them brick themselves? Could it be that easy?
- vincnetas 3y agoIs there such thing as GPS spoofer? I would guess only JAMMER is possible.
- nicce 3y agoYou can spoof GPS. It just needs be in the sky, and JAM at the same time. In theory it is possible?
- e2le 3y ago> It just needs be in the sky The target doesn't need to be airborne for such an attack to work. >A "proof-of-concept" attack was successfully performed in June 2013, when the luxury yacht White Rose of Drachs was misdirected with spoofed GPS signals by a group of aerospace engineering students from the Cockrell School of Engineering at the University of Texas in Austin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack#GNSS_spoofing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack#GNSS_spoofing
- Sephr 3y agoThis is sure to backfire and increase attention to NEWAG's own alleged criminal behavior. NEWAG executives & those responsible should face criminal charges for conspiracy to defraud in addition to libel. It's clear that NEWAG knowingly lied about alleged malfeasance from the third party repair shops, and took advantage of their sabotage to incentivize if not require their customer to pay for service at NEWAG's own repair shops.
- plagiarist 3y agoI would love to see criminal charges on this one, especially if they come under a computer hacking law, as that might set a great precedent for consumer protections. Unfortunately it will probably be more like a fine if anything.
- LorenPechtel 3y agoHacking? No. This is simply sabotage for the purposes of extortion.
- madaxe_again 3y agoThat would be lovely, but it depends on how the media presents it (I can see the image of a hooded “hacker” being used and the story being “hackers intrude into trains, face criminal charges, government demands investigation and hardening of DRM to prevent future illegality which poses a risk to the public”), and on how much cash they’re willing to throw at it to crush the hackers with civil and criminal suits.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y agoThe story I read said that the repair delays impacted train schedules (owing to fewer trains in operation). Potentially millions of people had their life disrupted because of corporate greed. Seems like a slam dunk public outcry.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoRelated: original news story discussion just over a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 And the followup from the company Polish train maker denies claims its software bricked competitor rolling stock https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38570654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38570654 More late quality from 404
- dang 3y agoThanks! Macroexpanded: Polish train maker denies claims its software bricked competitor rolling stock - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38570654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38570654 - Dec 2023 (2 comments) Dieselgate, but for trains – some heavyweight hardware hacking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38567687 - Dec 2023 (289 comments) Polish trains lock up when serviced in third-party workshops - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38530885 - Dec 2023 (357 comments) I think there may have been others?
- 6510 3y agoJanusz Cieszynski Former Minister of Digital Affairs https://twitter.com/jciesz/status/1732411016221524070?s=20 https://twitter.com/jciesz/status/1732411016221524070?s=20 translation: > The president of Newag contacted me. He claims that Newag fell victim to cybercriminals and it was not an intentional action by the company. The analysis I saw indicated something else, but for the sake of clarity, I will write about everything.
- rjmunro 3y agoIf their train software contains patches by cybercriminals that they were unable to detect but a third party hacking group without documentation were, how can we possibly believe that the train's software is safe? Surely the hackers could have put some other bugs in there.
- jakub_g 3y agoExactly. If they "fell victim to cybercriminals" who entered backdoors in the code (that they didn't know about for over 2 years!) then Newag should instantly recall all trains for inspection. Contrarily, if they _knew_ about it, and didn't tell anyone, then it's even worse.
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoBut if that's true, then what ground does the train company have for threatening the hackers? If you got hacked, then we weren't breaking your stuff. We were just undoing damage that someone else did to you as well as to your customer.
- nabakin 3y agoWhat interest would cybercriminals have in bricking trains at only independent repair centers? This is a ridiculous claim.
- matkoniecz 3y agoBlack flag operation, by competition pretending to be Newagg? But that is plot-of-cartoon-villain level of nonsense.
- Guvante 3y agoI will say my takeaway from this story is manufacturers screwing over their users to make more money isn't a "you are too small to fight back problem" but unmitigated greed.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y agoFrom the articles in relevant media, I gather they have got themselves a very good attorney. There's a possibility Newag might be in hot water, because sabotaging trains like this smells of criminal offense. Which is why they huff, puff, and try to employ scare tactics.
- hot_gril 3y agoI'm fine if DRM cuts both ways. Manufacturer is free to try locking things down as long as that's disclosed, I'm free to tamper with something I own. They own the trains.
- pavel_lishin 3y agoDRM is not merely a technological issue; it's a legal one as well.
- hot_gril 3y agoYes, by "free to" I mean it's legal to.
- wizzwizz4 3y agoIt's only DRM if it's from the Article 11 region of the WIPO Copyright Treaty; otherwise, it's just sparkling obfuscation. > Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law. (DRM's a silly name, anyway; it should be called "technological measures" or "technological protection measures" or something.)
- hot_gril 3y agoI think it's meant as a derogatory term cause people hate DRM. Like, I don't feel entitled to pirate movies, but plenty of times DRM has gotten in the way of legally watching movies I paid for.
- wizzwizz4 3y agoDigital Restrictions Management is a backronym popularised by the EFF, but DRM is the actual legal term used in the US, and doesn't necessarily carry a derogatory meaning.
- SenAnder 3y agoHolding the railway system hostage should make even the most short-sighted realize that DRM is an assault on national sovereignty.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoJailbreaking your train should be legally protected, but I don't know anything about Polish circumvention laws.
- zogrodea 3y ago"During the height of the pandemic, I wrote an article about how a Polish hacker had developed a dongle that was being used by American repair professionals to bypass DRM on ventilators needed to keep COVID-19 patients alive." That's extremely evil. I'm not emotionally invested in right-to-repair like many others here are, but it's corrupt that DRM is causing/has caused difficulty in operating things necessary for people's survival. Shame on these companies. Those who want to convince others of right-to-repair should point to cases like this because it's the #1 thing that makes me want to rally behind it too.
- tim333 3y agoThis is probably the thing https://hackaday.com/2020/07/15/diy-dongle-breathes-life-into-broken-ventilators/ https://hackaday.com/2020/07/15/diy-dongle-breathes-life-int... It's not quite as bad as it sounds - the hack allowed people to buy second hand ventilators and fix them up which I guess is handy in an emergency but could create safety risks if the thing then fails when a patient is relying on it.
- thomastjeffery 3y agoA opposed to it failing immediately, and the patient never being able to rely on it...
- Retr0id 3y agoAm I correctly reading your implication that, although this is a strong point in favor of the right-to-repair movement, you remain personally unconvinced in it as a whole? If so, what's holding you back from being fully convinced?
- zogrodea 3y agoI think it would be good for society if right-to-repair laws were passed but I just feel indifferent towards the topic and would rather spand time and energy caring about something that I feel (to me personally) is more important.
- t0bia_s 3y agoWhile I understand DRM problem, there should be concerns about safety indeed. Unauthorized access to operating system of public transport could be abused in many bad ways.
- jeremyjh 3y agoThere is no unauthorized access when the owner of a train hires a company to service it.
- t0bia_s 3y agoIf they bought it with knowing about DRM and they sign contract about it, it's technically "unauthorized". Why buying DRM things in first place?
- SSLy 3y ago> If they bought it with knowing about DRM a well, they didn't. No single word in manual about that. Also the locks are illegal vs. EU wide regulation about train maintenance.
- t0bia_s 3y agoThen they should sue manufacturer for hiding technical details.
- ozim 3y agoTrains did not have DRM in sticker price. Companies bought trains with „full technical documentation and service instructions” - I put it in quotes because all the locks and „DRM” stuff was undocumented and producer is claiming they never put anything like that in the first place.
- TomaszZielinski 3y agoHere's a direct link to the article with Dragon Sector answers to Newag's statement: https://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/wiadomosci/hakerzy-odpowiadaja-newagowi-116487.html https://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/wiadomosci/hakerzy-odpowiadaja... Fasten your seatbeats, it seems there's a lot more details this time. For instance, the say they have a before/after Newag service diff of the firmware, and there are interesting changes there. If that's true, then the "rogue hackers" must be sprinkled inside Newag :).
- tomaszs 3y agoThe issue is complicated. So far there's no proof for Newag involvement. It's very different to how security researchers publish their results. All is based on hearsay.
- sim7c00 3y agoi think people should be allowed to tinker with stuff. why not. it is ok to.memif.that voids the warranty tho. fair enough. its a bit funny in.this case the company first claims.it doesnt brick stuff, and subsequently threatens these guys.. did they lie first? that seems bordering criminal for a company to do... just admit it :/. 'yes we drm our crap and brick stuff with anti tamper detections'. how hard is it... hope dragon sector doesnt get into trouble, they do amazing work!
- tester756 3y agoGynvael Coldwind - one of the guys from Dragon Sector (but probably not a member of the team that hacked those trains) wrote an article about why company's line of defence that malicious code could be injected is flawed https://gynvael.coldwind.pl/?id=777 https://gynvael.coldwind.pl/?id=777 It is mostly about reverse engineering, compilation process, how thing are laid out in the final binary -.text, .data sections, offsets and stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooking
- ozim 3y agoI hate the article is using DRM as explanation. It has nothing to do with DRM or anything with preventing software from being tampered with. It was parts of software included by producer to make 3rd party shops look incapable of servicing. Placed there in a sneaky way. DRM makes it look like official documented tampering prevention - article itself is good. Use of DRM in title and in article is just wrong.
- wolpoli 3y agoThe story is missing a lot of details. It says very little about the role of Lower Silesian Railway, the company that that purchased the train from NEWAG and hired SPS to repair the train. Did Lower Silesian Railway (LSR) know that NEWAG expects that the trains need to be repaired at NEWAG facilities? Did LSR know about the technological measures implemented by NEWAG? What was in the original procurement contract between LSR and NEWAG? What is in the repair contract between LSR and SPS? Why is NEWAG still providing updates/LSR installing NEWAG updates for trains that are no longer under NEWAG's maintenance?