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>So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose There really is no self-defense p

>So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned. You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. When you level entire neighborhoods, and kill thousands of women and children, and make hundreds of thousands of them homeless, do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now? If killing is the solution to this conflict, it would have been solved a long time ago. If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy.

prewett 3y ago
How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Hamas' explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Israel, and they are right next door. An analogous situation would be if some member(s) of the family next door publicly wanted you dead, and randomly shot at you, your family, and your house. But you don't know which ones, or how many, and you're pretty sure that most of the family is more or less okay with you living there. What do you think the police are going to do? And in this case, there is no police. So what is Israel supposed to do? (The reality is, there is no good solution, in part because Hamas engineered it that way, although I don't see any good solution even if they haddn't.)
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  > How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door? I wonder why the "enemy" lives so close? How did they come there?
- jmprspret 3y ago
  How do you expect Palestine to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine, and they are right next door. The reality is, there is no good solution. Because Israel has engineered it that way, not Palestine, not Hamas.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    > Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine No it is not. Israel got its own people out of the Gaza strip years ago and hasn't let them back in since. Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because Hamas prefers to spend its resources on building tunnel networks and rockets instead of power stations and water treatment works. It is also militarily superior and has nuclear weapons. If they actually decided to "annihilate" Gaza it would be a smoking pile of glass tomorrow, as the military capability is there. > an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry The IDF wear uniforms and are easily identifiable. > Doing nothing is not an option They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. But the Palestinians seem to support the existing strategy.
    - covercash 3y ago
      > They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. How’s that working out for the Palestinians in the West Bank?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        Obviously better than the Palestinians in Gaza? Is that in question?
        evancox100 3y ago
        I mean, the actual material living conditions in the West Bank might be better, but don’t the Gazans at least have some form of sovereignty over their land? My understanding is that there is no real independent West Bank Palestinian government that exercises security over the land and the people on it. At least not in favor of the Palestinians.
amluto 3y ago
> There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned. > You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. dang has asked us to engage in thoughtful, curious conversation, and absolutes like you’re using seem unhelpful to this end. What is a “self-defense purpose?” I genuinely believe that Israel has such a purpose, and I think I argued it reasonably well. I didn’t say Israel’s actions were productive or wise, but the self-defense purpose exists. If Israel’s military command thinks of Gazans as machines or beasts, then it could see itself as doing the right thing. I personally believe that, especially when there is some form of conflict, one needs to remember that people are human, with human feelings and motivations, and consider those feelings and motivations, and Israel might act differently if its military command did so. And this leads to: > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. I think this exact feeling is a large part of the problem on both sides. Both sides have killed loved ones on the other side in ways that seem intentional, callous and pointless. (Remember what started the current war, and what Israel is doing as part of this war!) So, if people on both sides share this type of permanent hatred, then they will have a hard time ever finding peace. (And neither Israel nor Gaza are monoliths. Their people, their governments, their deceased ancestors, etc are separate. The actions of some IDF members, the orders from command, the actions of the government, and the actions of the average people are all different. And similarly for Gaza.)
- cassepipe 3y ago
  Thanks for challenging my take and for trying to keep the thread focused. Your response was the only one that did not derailed in some way or other. Back to your response : Is it the case that Hamas kept on going full on rockets after all the terrorists they sent were killed ? I am asking because they were already launching rockets before and Israel did not invade Gaza and instead relied on the Iron Dome and somewhat targeted strikes. I think it matters because it would make the difference between defense and vengeance. Some people are asking what I think Israel should have done. It's a hard path but I think they should have remained in the role of blatant victim and appeal to the international community to pressure for the release of hostages. Now you can argue that the other side is crazy and justify a hard stance in the eyes of the world. The dead are already dead and engaging in pointless counterinsurgency wars will make you look bad while achieving nothing but maybe endangering the life of hostages. But hey maybe I am deluded who knows.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Wasn't this Hamas's goal all along? They were losing their reason for existing, so they figured out a way reinvigorate hostilities? It looks like they succeeded. > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. You could rewrite this as: If I lost a loved one at the hands of Hamas/Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Hamas/Israel as nothing but an enemy. And so this cycle looks like it will never end.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  It is deeply ironic how Israeli ultranationalists and Hamas are fighting on the same side of the war that would destroy both of them, the fight in people's minds for peace.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    That’s true. Stuck in the middle are lots of innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
- ah27182 3y ago
  The cycle ends once there is true justice. That is: human rights for all (Israelis and Palestinians) and reparations made to those who have been forcibly displaced and killed ever since this conflict began.
  - js212 3y ago
    So what happens to the Arab Israeli Jews who got forced out of their countries in the 60s and 70s. Do they also get reparations?
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      That sounds reasonable to me.
    - 3y ago
hluska 3y ago
What other options does Israel have?
- nonviol 3y ago
  Two states along the 1967 borders. If Israel and the US agreed to this, the international community would overwhelmingly support it. This would be more than enough to guarantee Israel's security.
  - shashashasha___ 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hbt 3y ago
      When Israel controls the food intake of a population (The Gaza Diet) through a complete blockade, Israel doesn't get to claim they withdrew or respect the sovereignty of the Palestinian people. Israel tried to do in Gaza what they did in the West Bank. Carve it up, control key resources, create settlements through terrorism and encroach daily on Palestinian territory. Their settler-colonial crimes are well documented in the West Bank but Israel didn't have enough people and resources at the time to carry crimes both in the West Bank and Gaza.
      - nailer 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Hikikomori 3y ago
        Israel controls what and who moved through the Egypt border. Is that land area enough to feed their population? Jews can't colonize an area where they're literally kicking people out of their homes?
        nailer 3y ago
mikrotikker 3y ago
> do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now? That boat already sailed long ago when the populace is brainwashed into hatred of Israel and Jews from school age. You can find footage of interviews with Gazan children talking about how they hope to murder Jews when they grow up because it will make their family proud. There is no bloodless solution to this problem. And why should the otherwise peaceful Jews sit and wait for their blood to be spilled by an ever growing population of genocidal anti Semites? They have offered peace to the Gazans 4 times now? Each time receiving saliva in their face for their efforts. The Gazans don't even want a two state solution, only the extermination of all Jews.

prewett 3y ago

How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Hamas' explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Israel, and they are right next door. An analogous situation would be if some member(s) of the family next door publicly wanted you dead, and randomly shot at you, your family, and your house. But you don't know which ones, or how many, and you're pretty sure that most of the family is more or less okay with you living there. What do you think the police are going to do? And in this case, there is no police. So what is Israel supposed to do? (The reality is, there is no good solution, in part because Hamas engineered it that way, although I don't see any good solution even if they haddn't.)

Aerbil313 3y ago
> How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door? I wonder why the "enemy" lives so close? How did they come there?
jmprspret 3y ago
How do you expect Palestine to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine, and they are right next door. The reality is, there is no good solution. Because Israel has engineered it that way, not Palestine, not Hamas.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  > Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine No it is not. Israel got its own people out of the Gaza strip years ago and hasn't let them back in since. Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because Hamas prefers to spend its resources on building tunnel networks and rockets instead of power stations and water treatment works. It is also militarily superior and has nuclear weapons. If they actually decided to "annihilate" Gaza it would be a smoking pile of glass tomorrow, as the military capability is there. > an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry The IDF wear uniforms and are easily identifiable. > Doing nothing is not an option They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. But the Palestinians seem to support the existing strategy.
  - covercash 3y ago
    > They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. How’s that working out for the Palestinians in the West Bank?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      Obviously better than the Palestinians in Gaza? Is that in question?
      - evancox100 3y ago
        I mean, the actual material living conditions in the West Bank might be better, but don’t the Gazans at least have some form of sovereignty over their land? My understanding is that there is no real independent West Bank Palestinian government that exercises security over the land and the people on it. At least not in favor of the Palestinians.

amluto 3y ago

> There really is no self-defense purpose in my mind to what Israel is doing. It's more self-avenging as others mentioned. > You can argue it's a preventative operation to prevent future attack by taking out Hamas, but the approach they're taking does not indicate that since it's completely counter-productive and Israel must know that. dang has asked us to engage in thoughtful, curious conversation, and absolutes like you’re using seem unhelpful to this end. What is a “self-defense purpose?” I genuinely believe that Israel has such a purpose, and I think I argued it reasonably well. I didn’t say Israel’s actions were productive or wise, but the self-defense purpose exists. If Israel’s military command thinks of Gazans as machines or beasts, then it could see itself as doing the right thing. I personally believe that, especially when there is some form of conflict, one needs to remember that people are human, with human feelings and motivations, and consider those feelings and motivations, and Israel might act differently if its military command did so. And this leads to: > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. I think this exact feeling is a large part of the problem on both sides. Both sides have killed loved ones on the other side in ways that seem intentional, callous and pointless. (Remember what started the current war, and what Israel is doing as part of this war!) So, if people on both sides share this type of permanent hatred, then they will have a hard time ever finding peace. (And neither Israel nor Gaza are monoliths. Their people, their governments, their deceased ancestors, etc are separate. The actions of some IDF members, the orders from command, the actions of the government, and the actions of the average people are all different. And similarly for Gaza.)

cassepipe 3y ago
Thanks for challenging my take and for trying to keep the thread focused. Your response was the only one that did not derailed in some way or other. Back to your response : Is it the case that Hamas kept on going full on rockets after all the terrorists they sent were killed ? I am asking because they were already launching rockets before and Israel did not invade Gaza and instead relied on the Iron Dome and somewhat targeted strikes. I think it matters because it would make the difference between defense and vengeance. Some people are asking what I think Israel should have done. It's a hard path but I think they should have remained in the role of blatant victim and appeal to the international community to pressure for the release of hostages. Now you can argue that the other side is crazy and justify a hard stance in the eyes of the world. The dead are already dead and engaging in pointless counterinsurgency wars will make you look bad while achieving nothing but maybe endangering the life of hostages. But hey maybe I am deluded who knows.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Wasn't this Hamas's goal all along? They were losing their reason for existing, so they figured out a way reinvigorate hostilities? It looks like they succeeded. > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. You could rewrite this as: If I lost a loved one at the hands of Hamas/Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Hamas/Israel as nothing but an enemy. And so this cycle looks like it will never end.

whatshisface 3y ago
It is deeply ironic how Israeli ultranationalists and Hamas are fighting on the same side of the war that would destroy both of them, the fight in people's minds for peace.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  That’s true. Stuck in the middle are lots of innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
ah27182 3y ago
The cycle ends once there is true justice. That is: human rights for all (Israelis and Palestinians) and reparations made to those who have been forcibly displaced and killed ever since this conflict began.
- js212 3y ago
  So what happens to the Arab Israeli Jews who got forced out of their countries in the 60s and 70s. Do they also get reparations?
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    That sounds reasonable to me.
  - 3y ago

hluska 3y ago

What other options does Israel have?

nonviol 3y ago
Two states along the 1967 borders. If Israel and the US agreed to this, the international community would overwhelmingly support it. This would be more than enough to guarantee Israel's security.
- shashashasha___ 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hbt 3y ago
    When Israel controls the food intake of a population (The Gaza Diet) through a complete blockade, Israel doesn't get to claim they withdrew or respect the sovereignty of the Palestinian people. Israel tried to do in Gaza what they did in the West Bank. Carve it up, control key resources, create settlements through terrorism and encroach daily on Palestinian territory. Their settler-colonial crimes are well documented in the West Bank but Israel didn't have enough people and resources at the time to carry crimes both in the West Bank and Gaza.
    - nailer 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Hikikomori 3y ago
        Israel controls what and who moved through the Egypt border. Is that land area enough to feed their population? Jews can't colonize an area where they're literally kicking people out of their homes?
        nailer 3y ago

mikrotikker 3y ago

> do you really expect those people to start liking Israel now? That boat already sailed long ago when the populace is brainwashed into hatred of Israel and Jews from school age. You can find footage of interviews with Gazan children talking about how they hope to murder Jews when they grow up because it will make their family proud. There is no bloodless solution to this problem. And why should the otherwise peaceful Jews sit and wait for their blood to be spilled by an ever growing population of genocidal anti Semites? They have offered peace to the Gazans 4 times now? Each time receiving saliva in their face for their efforts. The Gazans don't even want a two state solution, only the extermination of all Jews.