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Taken in isolation there is nothing wrong with this type of reporting, the IDF should be held to high standards. In the context of the Israeli/Palestine conflic

Taken in isolation there is nothing wrong with this type of reporting, the IDF should be held to high standards. In the context of the Israeli/Palestine conflict, there is a tendency to hold Israel to a much higher standard and excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children. I don't see how that could possibly set up any lasting peace. Israel will become more deaf to outsiders, and Palestinians will not be entrusted to make decisions for themselves.

rich_sasha 3y ago
I think there is good reason to hold Israel to a higher standard. It is by many metrics one of the most sophisticated states in the whole world. It has one of the highest fractions of people with higher education, it is a highly innovative economy. It is the second largest country of origin for NASDAQ stocks - US being the first one - despite being small by numbers at around 10m people. Whereas the Palestinian territories barely classify as the third world. Similarly, it was awful, but not really surprising when the Taliban were torturing people but it was a shock when the US troops in Afghanistan did so. This isn't an excuse or justification for Hamas. But indeed I think our expectations of Israel should be higher.
- megaman821 3y ago
  If prisoner well-being was Qatar's concern, it would be best to bring accusations during diplomatic discussions. This is more like Russia Today calling out prisoner abuse in Guantanamo Bay. I don't think Israelis see Al Jazeera as a neutral player here, and are now less likely to demand better of the IDF.
- edanm 3y ago
  I completely agree that Israel should be held (and hold itself) to a higher standard than Hamas. I think one thing Israelis... dislike... is that often Israel is held to higher standards than every other country on Earth, is held to impossible standards. And when it falls short of those standards - it is considered proof that Israel is evil.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    Every other country? Which standards are you talking about?
    - edanm 3y ago
      Obviously this depends on who you're listening to. Certainly, the chants for a ceasefire right now because there are civilian deaths in Gaza can be a way of holding Israel to impossible standards. No country on Earth can wage war without civilians being killed, so unless you believe that Israel isn't entitled to wage war against Hamas in this situation, it's not clear what a call for ceasefire means - Israel should just surrender? Also, it's hard to tell how much of this is a Twitter bubble vs not, but the amount of people calling what Israel is doing genocide is very large (despite this being completely wrong), and many people are saying something to the effect of "nothing at all makes it ok to kill civilians", see above what that kind of statement means.
      - nielsbot 3y ago
        This is a false all-or-nothing take. It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. Here's one UN statement from weeks ago: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... What about bombing places where the US said there were aid groups? https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel-data-on-aid-group-locations-to-try-to-prevent-strikes-00128336 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel... What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel.
        edanm 3y ago
        > It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Completely agree. > Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. Disagree. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "refugee camps" here (since in some situation all of Gaza is referred to as a "Refugee camp"). Second, they are definitely destorying housing, but that's because Hamas militans are hiding in that housing. What is the alternative? Israel asked the people to evacuate and gave a a lot of time to evacuate those buildings, despite this allowing Hamas militants to evacuate as well, exactly to minimize casualties. And Israel hasn't destroyed hospitals as far as I'm aware, despite many people thinking so. > They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. This should by itself invalidate your statement that it's incautiously bombing. If the amount of bombing is so large, how are there so few civilian deaths compared to other conflicts? > We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. There is not intent to kill all the Palestinians. The reason we know there's no such intent is that if Israel truy were trying to do it, far far more civilians would've been killed. You can see that in every conflict in which a country really did go all-out and didn't care about deaths. (E.g. Syrian war, 600k dead, various actual genocides that have happened, etc.) Ethnic cleansing - for sure the current population of North Gaza was asked to vacate to the South. You can call that temporary ethnic cleansing if you want, I don't think it fits. If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans, they all are able to go back to the North - then it wouldn't really be ethnic cleansing. (There is the issue of many of their homes having been demolished - which is a clearer case for ethnic cleansing - but I still think it falls under the umbrella of justified attacks, but I also think Israel should do something to help the people made homeless.) > What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel. It's fighting a war. All wars are cruel. Israel didn't want this war, Hamas did. And Israel doesn't really have an alternative.
random_upvoter 3y ago
[flagged]
- liorsbg 3y ago
  Why do you think that?
  - random_upvoter 3y ago
    Thousands of children have been killed. It is not really a matter of opinion.
- dang 3y ago
  Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616662 and please don't comment in this spirit in this thread. We're trying for something different, to the extent that that's possible, and so far this thread has at least been doing better than the previous one. The same goes for some of the commenters arguing against your position—my moderation point here is certainly not about agreeing with them and disagreeing with you (I add this because I know it can all too easily feel that way).
pimpampum 3y ago
IDF kills more innocent people, woman and children (percentwise and in amount) than Hamas.
- ImJamal 3y ago
  Maybe? We are trusting Hamas' numbers on the number of people in Palestine who died. Not exactly the most objective source...
  - pimpampum 3y ago
    Historically casualties reported by Gaza authorities have been reliable. We are also trusting Israeli casualty numbers while reports now are coming out showing many friendly fire victims.
truculent 3y ago
> there is a tendency to hold Israel to a much higher standard and excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children What “Palestine side”? Hamas? the PA? The civilians, many of whom are actual children, dying in droves?
password54321 3y ago
> Excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children. I am not seeing this anywhere, unless being treated as civilians (which they mostly are) is now equivalent to being treated as "naive children".
- megaman821 3y ago
  It depends on the characterization you give Palestinian citizens; are they captives of Hamas, are they complicit in Hamas holding hostages and firing rockets at civilians, or are they just part of Hamas?
  - selimthegrim 3y ago
    Hamas has said that civilians are responsibility of UNRWA and ICRC. This has gotten them in for some criticism from said civilians.
- jddj 3y ago
  One of my filter bubbles presents me with something similar to what the parent is seeing, for another datapoint. There are extremely different narratives which one can be presented with. In one, the pro-palestine marches have been commandeered by russia/iran and/or neonazis, to the extent of chanting 30's era slogans and marking people's homes based on their Jewishness. The on the ground atrocities and brutal tactics of Hamas are hilighted against the humanness of Israeli victims. In another, Israel, aided by the US, is committing the systematic genocide of a severely underdefended population and there's an unspoken understanding of how Hamas could have arisen in such conditions. There's a sense that everything Hamas is doing is ineffectual and anyway reactive. The on the ground atrocities pale in comparison to the Israeli-sourced on the ground atrocities due to the imbalance of power and an implied overarching guilt / causality.

rich_sasha 3y ago

I think there is good reason to hold Israel to a higher standard. It is by many metrics one of the most sophisticated states in the whole world. It has one of the highest fractions of people with higher education, it is a highly innovative economy. It is the second largest country of origin for NASDAQ stocks - US being the first one - despite being small by numbers at around 10m people. Whereas the Palestinian territories barely classify as the third world. Similarly, it was awful, but not really surprising when the Taliban were torturing people but it was a shock when the US troops in Afghanistan did so. This isn't an excuse or justification for Hamas. But indeed I think our expectations of Israel should be higher.

megaman821 3y ago
If prisoner well-being was Qatar's concern, it would be best to bring accusations during diplomatic discussions. This is more like Russia Today calling out prisoner abuse in Guantanamo Bay. I don't think Israelis see Al Jazeera as a neutral player here, and are now less likely to demand better of the IDF.
edanm 3y ago
I completely agree that Israel should be held (and hold itself) to a higher standard than Hamas. I think one thing Israelis... dislike... is that often Israel is held to higher standards than every other country on Earth, is held to impossible standards. And when it falls short of those standards - it is considered proof that Israel is evil.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  Every other country? Which standards are you talking about?
  - edanm 3y ago
    Obviously this depends on who you're listening to. Certainly, the chants for a ceasefire right now because there are civilian deaths in Gaza can be a way of holding Israel to impossible standards. No country on Earth can wage war without civilians being killed, so unless you believe that Israel isn't entitled to wage war against Hamas in this situation, it's not clear what a call for ceasefire means - Israel should just surrender? Also, it's hard to tell how much of this is a Twitter bubble vs not, but the amount of people calling what Israel is doing genocide is very large (despite this being completely wrong), and many people are saying something to the effect of "nothing at all makes it ok to kill civilians", see above what that kind of statement means.
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      This is a false all-or-nothing take. It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. Here's one UN statement from weeks ago: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-wa... What about bombing places where the US said there were aid groups? https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel-data-on-aid-group-locations-to-try-to-prevent-strikes-00128336 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel... What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel.
      - edanm 3y ago
        > It's not an impossible standard to attempt to minimize civilian casualties. It's a crime of war not to. Completely agree. > Israel is incautiously bombing all over Gaza including refugee camps. They are destroying housing and hospitals. Disagree. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "refugee camps" here (since in some situation all of Gaza is referred to as a "Refugee camp"). Second, they are definitely destorying housing, but that's because Hamas militans are hiding in that housing. What is the alternative? Israel asked the people to evacuate and gave a a lot of time to evacuate those buildings, despite this allowing Hamas militants to evacuate as well, exactly to minimize casualties. And Israel hasn't destroyed hospitals as far as I'm aware, despite many people thinking so. > They have dropped more bombs in a few weeks than the US dropped in their first year war on Afghanistan. This should by itself invalidate your statement that it's incautiously bombing. If the amount of bombing is so large, how are there so few civilian deaths compared to other conflicts? > We can definitely call what Israel is doing "genocidal". And it does rise to the label of ethnic cleansing. There is not intent to kill all the Palestinians. The reason we know there's no such intent is that if Israel truy were trying to do it, far far more civilians would've been killed. You can see that in every conflict in which a country really did go all-out and didn't care about deaths. (E.g. Syrian war, 600k dead, various actual genocides that have happened, etc.) Ethnic cleansing - for sure the current population of North Gaza was asked to vacate to the South. You can call that temporary ethnic cleansing if you want, I don't think it fits. If in the long run Israel doesn't try to remove any Gazans, they all are able to go back to the North - then it wouldn't really be ethnic cleansing. (There is the issue of many of their homes having been demolished - which is a clearer case for ethnic cleansing - but I still think it falls under the umbrella of justified attacks, but I also think Israel should do something to help the people made homeless.) > What Israel is doing is disproportionate and cruel. It's fighting a war. All wars are cruel. Israel didn't want this war, Hamas did. And Israel doesn't really have an alternative.

random_upvoter 3y ago

[flagged]

liorsbg 3y ago
Why do you think that?
- random_upvoter 3y ago
  Thousands of children have been killed. It is not really a matter of opinion.
dang 3y ago
Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38616662 and please don't comment in this spirit in this thread. We're trying for something different, to the extent that that's possible, and so far this thread has at least been doing better than the previous one. The same goes for some of the commenters arguing against your position—my moderation point here is certainly not about agreeing with them and disagreeing with you (I add this because I know it can all too easily feel that way).

pimpampum 3y ago

IDF kills more innocent people, woman and children (percentwise and in amount) than Hamas.

ImJamal 3y ago
Maybe? We are trusting Hamas' numbers on the number of people in Palestine who died. Not exactly the most objective source...
- pimpampum 3y ago
  Historically casualties reported by Gaza authorities have been reliable. We are also trusting Israeli casualty numbers while reports now are coming out showing many friendly fire victims.

truculent 3y ago

> there is a tendency to hold Israel to a much higher standard and excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children What “Palestine side”? Hamas? the PA? The civilians, many of whom are actual children, dying in droves?

password54321 3y ago

> Excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children. I am not seeing this anywhere, unless being treated as civilians (which they mostly are) is now equivalent to being treated as "naive children".

megaman821 3y ago
It depends on the characterization you give Palestinian citizens; are they captives of Hamas, are they complicit in Hamas holding hostages and firing rockets at civilians, or are they just part of Hamas?
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Hamas has said that civilians are responsibility of UNRWA and ICRC. This has gotten them in for some criticism from said civilians.
jddj 3y ago
One of my filter bubbles presents me with something similar to what the parent is seeing, for another datapoint. There are extremely different narratives which one can be presented with. In one, the pro-palestine marches have been commandeered by russia/iran and/or neonazis, to the extent of chanting 30's era slogans and marking people's homes based on their Jewishness. The on the ground atrocities and brutal tactics of Hamas are hilighted against the humanness of Israeli victims. In another, Israel, aided by the US, is committing the systematic genocide of a severely underdefended population and there's an unspoken understanding of how Hamas could have arisen in such conditions. There's a sense that everything Hamas is doing is ineffectual and anyway reactive. The on the ground atrocities pale in comparison to the Israeli-sourced on the ground atrocities due to the imbalance of power and an implied overarching guilt / causality.