4 ms·

You mean in the US it's easier to exploit people?

by isodev 3y ago

zer00eyz 3y ago
Im sorry where are the exploited tech workers in the US? Then there is this gem from the article: > In many European countries, running a limited liability construct into insolvency effectively bans you from running another one in the foreseeable future. The mentality of "start a company in your 20s, and if you fail, you can either try again or get a job" wasn't a thing. So we are operating from a risk-averse base, due to a labor market with then-sluggish job creation and strong incumbent effects.
- isodev 3y ago
  The fact that the parent comment believes people would overwork themselves if you provide the right "incentive" (translation: bully them into an economic situation that makes them want to keep their job or else...). Not taking vacation, working overtime etc are all signs of unhealthy work environment. It's not something to cherish, it's something that tells you your business is need of adjustment.
  - zer00eyz 3y ago
    >>> Not taking vacation, working overtime etc are all signs of unhealthy work environment. If I worked in a factory, sure. IF I own my business, if I have a stake in what is going on then NO, none of these things are a sign of "unhealthy". I want to be rich and I want to punch the clock will forever be antithetical as long as there is someone more ambitious than someone else.
    - isodev 3y ago
      Ambition has nothing to do with how you treat the people you hire to work for you. The point is, you can both be rich and work a normal work day.
      - zer00eyz 3y ago
        > The point is, you can both be rich and work a normal work day. No, not really. Show me a successful tech venture in the last 20 years where they did 40 hour work weeks and made it. I will show you dozens that didn't. If you hire people that only want to do 40 hours a week. I hire people and give them stake in the company, and less pay. I have more runway, lower costs, higher productivity... The arbitrage between time/work/pay/stake that im offering appeals to subset of people. Those who understand delayed gratification, and make the right bets (or enough of them) have a fairly good chance of coming out on top vs the competitors.
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nvm0n2 3y ago
This reply sums up the EU's root cause problem in a nutshell: it is still a much more left wing and socialist culture than America. You can see it in the article, where the author is at pains to stress that he's definitely not one of those awful barbaric libertarians even as he lists the reasons that Europe is getting relatively poorer. He doesn't even remember to mention the stark differences in labor laws! It can also be seen in the prevalence of wealth or sometimes they're called solidarity taxes, which interact so badly with large startup valuations. When something as basic as allowing company owners to control the size of their own workforce is immediately and mindlessly attacked as "exploitation", it is clear why Europe isn't going to catch up anytime soon to the USA. There isn't even a discussion of the tradeoffs here, it's just immediately cast in purely moral terms as an unmitigated evil. And as someone who lives there, I worry that Europe's aggressive hostility towards US culture and business practices will eventually cause the US giants to stop hiring people here. It is already causing products to not launch. If you're a talented programmer then working for the Americans is far better than working for European companies, and so a part of why Europe struggles to create challenger startups is simply that big US firms hire all the best people at much higher salaries and much better conditions than European firms, ensuring they struggle to catch up. Unfortunately if the US firms go, we won't suddenly see Europe become Americanized, instead it will just go the same way as eastern Europe did in the 20th century and get progressively poorer whilst the appointed leadership tells themselves how moral and virtuous they are for "protecting" the workers against those terrible people to the west.

You mean in the US it's easier to exploit people?

by isodev 3y ago

You mean in the US it's easier to exploit people?

Im sorry where are the exploited tech workers in the US? Then there is this gem from the article: > In many European countries, running a limited liability construct into insolvency effectively bans you from running another one in the foreseeable future. The mentality of "start a company in your 20s, and if you fail, you can either try again or get a job" wasn't a thing. So we are operating from a risk-averse base, due to a labor market with then-sluggish job creation and strong incumbent effects.

isodev 3y ago
The fact that the parent comment believes people would overwork themselves if you provide the right "incentive" (translation: bully them into an economic situation that makes them want to keep their job or else...). Not taking vacation, working overtime etc are all signs of unhealthy work environment. It's not something to cherish, it's something that tells you your business is need of adjustment.
- zer00eyz 3y ago
  >>> Not taking vacation, working overtime etc are all signs of unhealthy work environment. If I worked in a factory, sure. IF I own my business, if I have a stake in what is going on then NO, none of these things are a sign of "unhealthy". I want to be rich and I want to punch the clock will forever be antithetical as long as there is someone more ambitious than someone else.
  - isodev 3y ago
    Ambition has nothing to do with how you treat the people you hire to work for you. The point is, you can both be rich and work a normal work day.
    - zer00eyz 3y ago
      > The point is, you can both be rich and work a normal work day. No, not really. Show me a successful tech venture in the last 20 years where they did 40 hour work weeks and made it. I will show you dozens that didn't. If you hire people that only want to do 40 hours a week. I hire people and give them stake in the company, and less pay. I have more runway, lower costs, higher productivity... The arbitrage between time/work/pay/stake that im offering appeals to subset of people. Those who understand delayed gratification, and make the right bets (or enough of them) have a fairly good chance of coming out on top vs the competitors.

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nvm0n2 3y ago

This reply sums up the EU's root cause problem in a nutshell: it is still a much more left wing and socialist culture than America. You can see it in the article, where the author is at pains to stress that he's definitely not one of those awful barbaric libertarians even as he lists the reasons that Europe is getting relatively poorer. He doesn't even remember to mention the stark differences in labor laws! It can also be seen in the prevalence of wealth or sometimes they're called solidarity taxes, which interact so badly with large startup valuations. When something as basic as allowing company owners to control the size of their own workforce is immediately and mindlessly attacked as "exploitation", it is clear why Europe isn't going to catch up anytime soon to the USA. There isn't even a discussion of the tradeoffs here, it's just immediately cast in purely moral terms as an unmitigated evil. And as someone who lives there, I worry that Europe's aggressive hostility towards US culture and business practices will eventually cause the US giants to stop hiring people here. It is already causing products to not launch. If you're a talented programmer then working for the Americans is far better than working for European companies, and so a part of why Europe struggles to create challenger startups is simply that big US firms hire all the best people at much higher salaries and much better conditions than European firms, ensuring they struggle to catch up. Unfortunately if the US firms go, we won't suddenly see Europe become Americanized, instead it will just go the same way as eastern Europe did in the 20th century and get progressively poorer whilst the appointed leadership tells themselves how moral and virtuous they are for "protecting" the workers against those terrible people to the west.