5 ms·
Kids with cats have double the risk of developing schizophrenia
- jjtheblunt 3y agoHow does the topic of toxoplasmosis gondii reappear every six months or so? Reminds me of the Paul Graham article about submarine news placement. http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html I wish i knew how to compose one of those related article searches that dang does so well. Imperfect search: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=toxoplasmosis https://hn.algolia.com/?q=toxoplasmosis
- scythe 3y agoBut what firm could plausibly be behind a fusillade of articles relating cats to schizophrenia? Is this the work of Big Dog?
- m463 3y agoit is not a firm, it is the toxoplasmosis itself causing the posts.
- floydnoel 3y agoIt's actually called Puppy Co, you can learn more in the documentary "Boss Baby"
- thedailymail 3y agoHow can we be sure this comment isn't motivated skepticism in the service of Big Toxo?
- maxerickson 3y agoIt's news that touches a nerve. Many people have spent time around cats.
- ggm 3y ago"touches a nerve" I saw what you did there.
- huytersd 3y agoBecause it’s a strange disease. Almost magical in some claims made of it.
- cm2012 3y agoThere's so much BS around toxoplasmosis online. Here's corrections for two common misconceptions: 1) Almost everyone who has it got it from eating undercooked meat, not from cats. France has the highest rate of toxoplasmosis in the world because of their propensity for rare meats: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/. 2) Unless your cat lived a long part of it's life as an outdoor cat, it is very unlikely to have the parasite (like any parasite).
- godelski 3y ago[flagged]
- daveguy 3y ago[flagged]
- vore 3y agoWell, call me an orange cat because I have no idea what this is about!
- camdenlock 3y ago[flagged]
- Gustomaximus 3y agoA quick google says not true on intelligence, but true on gender. https://medium.com/@kittenjumpy/debunking-the-myth-are-orange-cats-dumb-2670f243c197 https://medium.com/@kittenjumpy/debunking-the-myth-are-orang... https://www.dutch.com/blogs/cats/are-orange-cats-always-male https://www.dutch.com/blogs/cats/are-orange-cats-always-male
- godelski 3y agoBtw, that __medium article__ doesn't say "not true on intelligence," it says "orange cats aren't dumb" and doesn't cite any sources except its own blog. But if there's a systematic bias in male cats being more dumb then we have a confounding variable. But I relied on a claim by an anthropologist who studies statistics. @clnq's citation notes a correlation with riskier behavior which I think many intelligence tests can codify as unintelligent. But wouldn't be surprised if it is wrong, but factuality isn't the point of the comment anyways. https://twitter.com/rlmcelreath/status/1696120557983425011 https://twitter.com/rlmcelreath/status/1696120557983425011
- nikanj 3y ago[flagged]
- clnq 3y ago
- giantg2 3y agoIt'd be easy to rule this out. Cats who have been indoor-only without access to rodents are unlikely to have it. This would be a good distinction to collect/analyze if wanting to add credibility to the toxoplasmosis theory and rule out other cat related factors.
- peteradio 3y agoAny cat who lives in my house would have plenty access to rodents. Not sure if it would be as clean a line as you imagine.
- gtirloni 3y agoI don't mean to judge, just an honest question: considering we're talking about indoor cats, how do you have plenty of rats inside your house? Is it something you can fix completely with professional services? It's what people usually do so I'm curious if it's a special case.
- brewdad 3y agoIn my case, they lived in my neighbor’s unkempt yard and a few secluded spots from when the previous neighbor raised chickens. This summer, they moved out and the house was vacant for a month. First time in 20 years we found mice in our house. We did have them in our garage about 10 years ago until I changed some things.
- gtirloni 3y agoAh, that's bad. Perfect environment to reproduce and then of course they find their way in.
- peteradio 3y agoI'm thinking it wouldn't take much to spoil a study is all.
- 3y ago
- johndhi 3y agoHmm. My schizophrenic relative really likes cats. Could it just be a genetic predisposition to like cats is related to a genetic predisposition to the illness?
- bqmjjx0kac 3y agoAlternatively, cats can smell schizophrenia.
- smt88 3y ago"Genetic predisposition to liking cats" is a big stretch though.
- echelon 3y agoSounds like we need to extinct toxo. > This affinity may be related to the lack of a single enzyme in feline guts, delta-6-desaturase. One route might be genetically engineering the introduction of the the gene(s) for this enzyme, if we can prove it reduces the infectiousness of the parasite.
- xyzzy_plugh 3y agoDon't disturb the poop of wild animals without precautions. Don't let your cats outside. There! Problem solved.
- klipt 3y agoHow do you stop toddlers from picking up pieces of cat poop from sandy areas in public playgrounds and sticking them in their mouths?
- crtified 3y agoMittens and muzzles. (I'm joking, I'm joking!, look, we're 4 levels deep in HN's 50th joyous t.gondii thread here, allow me this innocent shitpost)
- crtified 3y ago<looks at previous comment's dv's> Fair enough, it is indeed a cruel world where our children can't even eat animal faeces in safety, and any levity to the contrary should indeed be harshly punished - thank-you-sir-may-I-please-have-another? <bares back>
- xyzzy_plugh 3y agoIn this place up is down. You did good, kid.
- cm2012 3y agoToxoplasmosis does not primarily infect humans from cats, and never indoor cats! Undercooked meat is the primary vector.
- gnabgib 3y agoThat's not what the source meta-analysis[0] says: "Our findings support an association between cat exposure and an increased risk of broadly defined schizophrenia-related disorders; however, the findings related to PLE as an outcome are mixed. There is a need for more high-quality studies in this field." (DOI: 10.1093/schbul/sbad168 linked at the bottom of the editorial) [0]: https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/schbul/sbad168/7458104 https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/advance-artic...
- scythe 3y agoThe more accurate title would say "schizophrenia-related disorders". Since cat-related schizoform disorders may be clinically distinct, this could be a useful distinction.
- nialse 3y agoOn the contrary the epidemiological interpretation of the study's conclusion would be aligned with the chosen headline, for once. "Kids with cats have double the risk of developing schizophrenia" seems to line up with the study's conclusion that "Our findings support an association between cat exposure and an increased risk of broadly defined schizophrenia-related disorders". The odds ratio is greater than 2 which translates into a doubling of the risk (eg odds) and >25 years is an excursion criteria. The lower bound CI is > 1 so it's likely to be a real association. PLE is Psychotic Like Experiences that seems to be a broader definition, which does not have a significant association. This can be due to lack of studies with said definition or imply that the effect is specific to schizophrenia-related disorders. However, the causality part is not investigated.
- xyzzy_plugh 3y agoWorth noting that the incidence of toxoplasmosis gondii in cats is heavily correlated with allowing them outside, which is where they usually contract it. Surprise! If you let your animal outside and let it interact with, and even potentially consume, other wild animals, it may spread things! This article draws conclusions only to support a clickbait title. There's no mention of the prevalence amongst cat cohorts. This is borderline fear mongering. But don't simply listen to me, ask your vet. Edit: would love to hear from down voters what about my comment they disagree with.
- whateveracct 3y agoOne of HN's special fixations is toxoplasmosis. Cats come up and there's a swarm of orange comments about how people like cats because they have a brain-control parasite.
- xyzzy_plugh 3y agoYep, so bizarre. I watched this climb to the top of the front page without any comments. Maybe all the aspiring capitalists find this level of viral mind control... inspiring?
- orangecat 3y agoCats come up and there's a swarm of orange comments Just one. Unless the parasites tell me to post more.
- cwillu 3y agoMy downvote comes from my reflexive downvoting of any comment that mentions downvotes.
- maxerickson 3y agoHo Ho Ho
- cm2012 3y agoAlso most cases come from eating undercooked meat, not cats. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/.
- shikshake 3y agoThis just seems like a review of previous studies, picking and choosing evidence/previous conclusions from tangentially related investigations. I can’t access the published paper but the article implies this area has been studied before, so I’m confused what this new paper is supposed to contribute. Is it just a literature overview? I’m interested in getting a cat in the future so I’m interested in a proper study of this.
- fhsm 3y agoThe article subtitle is a "A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis". Many good refs define both but [1] is free. As far as how you might think of them [2,3] give context. The exact extent of merit can be debated but these do have merit. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5903119/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5903119/ [2] https://ebm.bmj.com/content/21/4/125 https://ebm.bmj.com/content/21/4/125 [3] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1895230 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1895230
- ordu 3y ago"Meta-analysis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis
- whateveracct 3y agoIndoor cats don't have toxoplasmosis. That's a fact.
- r_singh 3y agoIs it common for cats to be exclusively indoor?
- rimunroe 3y agoYes? This is certainly common everywhere I’ve lived in the US, though it’s also common to have cats that go outdoors too. I think a majority of the cat owners I know have indoor-only cats.
- m463 3y agois it common for infected rats not to come indoors?
- CuriousCosmic 3y agoIt depends where you live. Rats are less common outside the city. There are plenty of field mice and of course still some rats but they generally all stay outside as long as you've kept up with house maintenance. We've had a few rats get into equipment outside our house over the years and probably a few (or squirrels) in the attic but to this date we've yet to see any evidence of one inside the house itself or anywhere the cats could get to them.
- crtified 3y agoIn the limited (but probably dominant, here at HN) context of middle-class-ish urban dwellers, I daresay there would be a sizeable proportion of clean, well-sealed modern homes in which rat ingress is at, or almost, zero. Doubtless there is also a significant proportion of homes where rat ingress is more common. But I couldn't begin to speculate about where those numbers might actually fall.
- rimunroe 3y agoWe usually have some appearance of a mouse once every couple of years. I suppose it’s possible others are getting in and being eaten by our cats or dog first, but that seems unlikely. Regardless, I believe cats which have eaten infected meat only shed oocytes for up to three weeks post-infection, and usually don’t shed again, so for most homeowners with indoor cats it’s probably a fairly low risk. I believe gardening and playing around in dirt are both far more likely sources of toxoplasmosis infection anyway.
- forgingahead 3y agoI was thinking about this the other day as well, I wonder how much pet ownership in general also has a direct impact on fertility. Not fertility rates (as in, couples choosing not to have kids get pets instead), but rather toxoplasmosis effects. One counterpoint is that in previous decades, many families in certain western countries had some sort of pet but also had many children, but I wonder if living spaces becoming smaller (esp in cities) has amplified a minor effect. Anecdotally (tiny sample size of course), we know several couples trying without success, but those without pets seem to get pregnant moreso than those with.
- NotSuspicious 3y agoI wonder how this may have impacted world history. Something along the lines of humans have grain storage >> rats are attracted to grain >> cats are attracted to rats >> humans are attracted to cats >> human populations with cats become slightly more schizoaffective (which in most premodern societies is not really pathological) >> these societies commune with the divine more/tell the future/develop more complex religious institutions >> these religious institutions help stabilize society Kinda seems like a win-win to be honest.
- mustardo 3y ago> these religious institutions help stabilize society I'm not sure this is true, there are plenty of conflicts because of religion. I would argue the most stable would for nobody to be religious
- cm2012 3y agoThere's essentially no evidence for this.
- doublemint2203 3y agoSomebody read Snow Crash.... ?
- readthenotes1 3y agoHere a study that doesn't need "in mice". Maybe "not just in mice"?
- bombi 3y agoEven if these studies, barely making statistical relevance, were accurate, they still fail to highlight the fact that vitamin B3 cures schizophrenia
- morninglight 3y agoI am not aware of any testing that has approved vitamin B3 (niacin) as a treatment for schizophrenia. Perhaps you are thinking of vitamin B13. At one time orotic acid was known as vitamin B13. It is no longer considered a vitamin. It is interesting that orotic acid can combine with lithium to form lithium orotate and some people believe it could be used as a treatment. Lithium (carbonate) is sometimes used for the treatment of schizophrenia and although lithium orotate can also provide lithium, it has not passed testing for approval in any medical treatment that I have encountered.
- s5300 3y ago[dead]
- notShabu 3y agoI've also heard that growing up with cats prevents allergies. Forget the source
- astrea 3y agoAll allergies?
- ridgeguy 3y agoWow. Toxoplasmosis? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3035534/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3035534/
- m3kw9 3y ago2 words, cat poop.
- jasfi 3y agoThis could easily be because dogs lower stress levels. That's assuming they had cats and no dogs at all.
- adamredwoods 3y agoAlthough I'm all for the study of T. gondii, they also state other factors that could affect schizophrenia outcome: >> Environmental factors are also important. Epidemiologic studies, for example, have established that winter-spring birth, urban birth, and perinatal and postnatal infection are all risk factors for the disease developing in later life.
- cm2012 3y agoThere's so much BS around toxoplasmosis online. And apparently in this article. Here's corrections for two common misconceptions: 1) Almost everyone who has it got it from eating undercooked meat, not from cats. France has the highest rate of toxoplasmosis in the world because of their propensity for rare meats: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312802/. 2) Unless your cat lived a long part of it's life as an outdoor cat, it is very unlikely to have the parasite (like any parasite). So I suspect toxoplasmosis is completely uninvolved in any correlation they may have found.
- cm2012 3y agoCorrelation/causation
- ekianjo 3y ago> The researchers conducted an extensive study search across various databases and gray literature from January 1, 1980, to May 30, 2023, without geographical or language limitations. They included studies reporting original data on cat ownership and schizophrenia-related outcomes. Out of 1,915 identified studies, 17 were used from 11 different countries. cherry picking studies to find some meaningful signal. Meta analysis is not a thing, it's just pseudo-science.
- thedailymail 3y agoOnly somewhat related, but many of the comments highlight the importance of not using "rat" as shorthand for "rodent." Cats will happily sport-kill their way through mice, moles, and even rabbits, but they tend to leave rats alone because they are big and fight back. https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wilson/v086n04/p0384-p0396.pdf https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wilson/v08... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-are-surprisingly-ineffective-keeping-urban-rat-populations-check-180970428/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-are-surprisin...
- LoganDark 3y agoI find this funny since I have cats and also dissociative identity disorder, but I don't really think this article is correct.