4 ms·

It's a weird false dichotomy you've set up. I don't think it's fair or true to ascribe "drugs are harmless" as the generalization of the position, "drug use sho

by wcarss 3y ago

It's a weird false dichotomy you've set up. I don't think it's fair or true to ascribe "drugs are harmless" as the generalization of the position, "drug use should not carry criminal penalties". If I may try to thread this needle: - drug use has serious consequences for users directly and for society - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always be available, see prohibition for the strongest case here - illicit drug trafficking increases other criminal elements like gang violence, petty theft, etc, incurring high costs on society - it is believed that addressing the causes for hardcore drug use as a mental and physical health issue may actually reduce drug use - that work may be expensive today, but is expected to become a net positive over time as drug use declines The idea is literally investing to fix a problem properly, rather than slapping on ever more expensive band-aid solutions as the problem gets worse. If you don't believe health care can reduce drug use, that may be a sound position to hold, but if you believe it is effective it is absolutely not at odds to both desire investment in it and to seek decriminalization.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always be available, see prohibition for the strongest case here I disagree that hardline policies can't work. In China, there is no social safety net for drug users (nor much for anyone else), nor is there much sympathy for it, therefore...drug abuse happens for sure, but it just doesn't survive very long (one way or the other). But regarding more permissive western cultures: imprisonment in the American system of "we put you away and don't bother with substance abuse treatment in prison" doesn't work, but there are definitely alternatives to that (flood prisons with substance abuse treatment programs).
- wintogreen74 3y ago
  >> flood prisons with substance abuse treatment programs As a tax payer it's perfectly reasonable that I don't want to pay for that, though.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Yes. But we are already paying more to many keep these people out of prison than in. $100k/year per unhoused neighbor on fent is hugely expensive, and they aren't even getting treatment in most cases.
    - wcarss 3y ago
      Personally, this is where I hope the costs are going to come down with time. I'm content for this to be something we try, and we can measure its costs and efficacy after some real time and investment. The initial outlay and efforts are likely going to have a lot of bespoke work and trial and error, and lack economy of scale. If after a decade it ends up being very expensive but very effective, or moderately expensive and moderately effective, or expensive and not very effective, we can make better informed decisions -- rather than stick with prison by default, just because it is cheapest for now.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        It’s a hugely expensive experiment that we are primarily paying for with local funds. Can the richer cities of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles solve our nation’s drug problem by throwing their money at it? Obviously not, and even if we were successful, our problem would just get worse (since none of these cities are closed).
- scruple 3y ago
  Somewhere in between imprisonment and flooding prisons with substance abuse treatment programs, we'll have to stop flooding prisons with substances in the first place.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  I mean if you propose we just kill addicts it might be effective in some cold, economic sense, but it sure would be great not to do that. I don’t know why you’d use china as an example unless thats what you’re suggesting. Say we put someone in prison then treat them for drug use and it works. This person is cured, found jesus, and will never touch another drug in their life. Why would you still keep them in prison? They’d have been sentenced to a time in prison regardless. Why? Would you propose a system of early release for cured drug offenders?
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    That wasn’t the point. Some of addicts in China are dying, but given the lack of a social safety net at all, most are just willing not to go there. Here in the USA, you can try fent with the local idea that mom, dad, or maybe society, will put you back together. In China, none of that will happen, your chances of ruining your life are obviously high, so doing drugs isn’t really an option. But we can’t really go there as a western country, so we try to socially reduce the consequences of drug use: not only are we not going to throw you in jail, but we are going to make sure you don’t starve/freeze to death and we will even try to cure you (even if we are going to fail at that most of the time). If we had drug treatment in prison that worked, we would be horribly stupid not to just lean in on that. I’m totally for “go to prison but get out of you get clean.” Who wouldn’t?
    - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
      How do you know that drug use is so much more rare in China? Wouldn’t this system allow it to be equally common but relegated to the shadows? Just based on what I’ve heard from a friend who grew up there, people in China go through an extremely competitive, difficult schooling to obtain a position in an extremely competitive, brutal workspace and have high rates of undiagnosed mental illness as a result. I’d be willing to bet a lot of them secretly use drugs to cope. Do you think it’s the fact that people will be able to put you back together in the USA that gets people into it? I’d have thought they get into drugs young, when they don’t think it’s dangerous (or like that it is) then get addicted and look for things to keep getting that high on. Only other group that comes to mind is veterans coping with ptsd and people who got put on prescription painkillers, though I’m sure there are others I’m not considering. If I’m mistaken please inform me.

by wcarss 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> - imprisonment is not effective at curbing drug use in individuals or systemically, because illicit drugs will always be available, see prohibition for the strongest case here I disagree that hardline policies can't work. In China, there is no social safety net for drug users (nor much for anyone else), nor is there much sympathy for it, therefore...drug abuse happens for sure, but it just doesn't survive very long (one way or the other). But regarding more permissive western cultures: imprisonment in the American system of "we put you away and don't bother with substance abuse treatment in prison" doesn't work, but there are definitely alternatives to that (flood prisons with substance abuse treatment programs).

wintogreen74 3y ago
>> flood prisons with substance abuse treatment programs As a tax payer it's perfectly reasonable that I don't want to pay for that, though.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Yes. But we are already paying more to many keep these people out of prison than in. $100k/year per unhoused neighbor on fent is hugely expensive, and they aren't even getting treatment in most cases.
  - wcarss 3y ago
    Personally, this is where I hope the costs are going to come down with time. I'm content for this to be something we try, and we can measure its costs and efficacy after some real time and investment. The initial outlay and efforts are likely going to have a lot of bespoke work and trial and error, and lack economy of scale. If after a decade it ends up being very expensive but very effective, or moderately expensive and moderately effective, or expensive and not very effective, we can make better informed decisions -- rather than stick with prison by default, just because it is cheapest for now.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      It’s a hugely expensive experiment that we are primarily paying for with local funds. Can the richer cities of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles solve our nation’s drug problem by throwing their money at it? Obviously not, and even if we were successful, our problem would just get worse (since none of these cities are closed).
scruple 3y ago
Somewhere in between imprisonment and flooding prisons with substance abuse treatment programs, we'll have to stop flooding prisons with substances in the first place.
BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
I mean if you propose we just kill addicts it might be effective in some cold, economic sense, but it sure would be great not to do that. I don’t know why you’d use china as an example unless thats what you’re suggesting. Say we put someone in prison then treat them for drug use and it works. This person is cured, found jesus, and will never touch another drug in their life. Why would you still keep them in prison? They’d have been sentenced to a time in prison regardless. Why? Would you propose a system of early release for cured drug offenders?
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  That wasn’t the point. Some of addicts in China are dying, but given the lack of a social safety net at all, most are just willing not to go there. Here in the USA, you can try fent with the local idea that mom, dad, or maybe society, will put you back together. In China, none of that will happen, your chances of ruining your life are obviously high, so doing drugs isn’t really an option. But we can’t really go there as a western country, so we try to socially reduce the consequences of drug use: not only are we not going to throw you in jail, but we are going to make sure you don’t starve/freeze to death and we will even try to cure you (even if we are going to fail at that most of the time). If we had drug treatment in prison that worked, we would be horribly stupid not to just lean in on that. I’m totally for “go to prison but get out of you get clean.” Who wouldn’t?
  - BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
    How do you know that drug use is so much more rare in China? Wouldn’t this system allow it to be equally common but relegated to the shadows? Just based on what I’ve heard from a friend who grew up there, people in China go through an extremely competitive, difficult schooling to obtain a position in an extremely competitive, brutal workspace and have high rates of undiagnosed mental illness as a result. I’d be willing to bet a lot of them secretly use drugs to cope. Do you think it’s the fact that people will be able to put you back together in the USA that gets people into it? I’d have thought they get into drugs young, when they don’t think it’s dangerous (or like that it is) then get addicted and look for things to keep getting that high on. Only other group that comes to mind is veterans coping with ptsd and people who got put on prescription painkillers, though I’m sure there are others I’m not considering. If I’m mistaken please inform me.