8 ms·

The root cause in both instances isn't drugs and so infinite spending or (de)criminalization won't matter. The core issue is hope. In the absence of work for th

The root cause in both instances isn't drugs and so infinite spending or (de)criminalization won't matter. The core issue is hope. In the absence of work for the abled and care for the disabled and housing, there isn't much hope and so crimes, habits, and deaths of despair take hold. Without holistic and comprehensive betterment of people who feel ignored and cheated, there isn't much for this growing sector of society to look forward to. It should be no wonder why many people are so desperate and put faith in a lying, vindictive con artist like Trump.

wussboy 3y ago
Do you have any evidence for this?
- josefritz 3y ago
  This is well documented and even acknowledged by the US government. https://waysandmeans.house.gov/2-5-million-uncounted-unemployed-currently-ignored-in-official-unemployment-calculations/ https://waysandmeans.house.gov/2-5-million-uncounted-unemplo... https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2020/05/08/the-unseen-unemployed-why-skyrocketing-unemployment-numbers-are-incomplete/?sh=2a5901d314f5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2020/05/08/the-un...
afarrell 3y ago
I have come to the conclusion that lots of humans have a religion-shaped hole in their psyche. It is far better to fill it with a stable, local, hope-giving religion. Hymns are a better opiate of the masses than fentanyl.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Almost like we are hard-wired for belief. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.h...
- hifreq 3y ago
  While I agree that the reduction in the role of religion in the US is partially to blame for the increase in severe cases of drug addition, the idea that we need to bring religion back essentially to control people is extremely patronizing. Basically, we are saying that some people are too stupid to live productively if they are not controlled by fairy tales. This is the same approach as we are seeing in the "far left" bubble in the context of this issue: street drug addicts have no responsibilities and agency, the society has to accommodate their every whim, including ignoring all illegal activities they are engaged in. Until we acknowledge that benefits come with responsibilities we are not going to solve this.
  - anon291 3y ago
    It's not fairy tales. Its human need for attachment to something greater. America has not filled that with anything else. The previous flag waving civic nationalism has become demonized so now there's nothing.
    - hifreq 3y ago
      > America has not filled that with anything else That's not an issue that America has to solve (i.e. the government or the society). It's an individual need that every individual is responsible for.
      - BizarreByte 3y ago
        > It's an individual need that every individual is responsible for. You shouldn't be surprised then when vast amounts of people fail to fill a hole that for the vast majority of human history was filled for them. I honestly believe most people simply aren't capable of making their on meaning or purpose out of nothing.
        hifreq 3y ago
        I am not surprised by that in the slightest, and I agree that most people struggle with that, myself included. It is THE struggle of our lives. Being told as a child that if you take drugs you will go to hell is not a meaningful alternative. Not for incredibly complex thinking beings that we are. Submitting to Jesus, being a part of the "right" religious group is not a benefit to the human race as a whole. It's poison, promoted by power hungry maniacs.
- 1letterunixname 3y ago
  This is also true. The decline in community (where religion played a large part in cementing personal and local bonds) and increase in anomie has led not just to deaths of despair and to other symptoms not just loneliness and depression, but on the fringes of alienation and disconnection to where some volatile people go as far hate-fueled "blaze of glory" mass shootings. I find one of the biggest losses, especially in dense cities, is that the churches and community orgs there often lack local, long-term ties to said communities. Also, there are a number of religious institutions in big cities that are sometimes open only on (Friday, Saturday, or Sunday depending on their beliefs) and don't provide as much closeness and synomie for people as rural religious institutions do. I wouldn't recommend that all things must attempt to recapture the 1950's apartheid and social conservativism in all regards, but a crucial linchpin of a functional society appears to be missing. It is not necessarily religion or faith, but it includes a lack of love for, and trust of, others where America went from community-individual balanced to hyperindividualism with a dysfunctional social safety net.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    >I wouldn't recommend that all things must attempt to recapture the 1950's apartheid and social conservativism in all regards I don't think you can avoid this. If you bring back religion, you necessarily have to accept apartheid and social conservatism. The two go hand-in-hand. Religion probably worked well for bonding communities back when communities were small and homogeneous and had little contact with the outside world. But in an era of global travel and communications, it doesn't work: we have to have huge wars to decide whose religion is the correct one. Just look at what's going on with Israel lately. Different religions can't peacefully co-exist, so devastating wars are necessary to maintain order.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      > Religion probably worked well and bonding communities back when communities were small and homogeneous and had little contact with the outside world. Religion has been more impactful in spreading knowledge and connecting cultures around the world than the printing press, radio and the internet combined. Religion for a long time was the only contact with the outside world. Christianity today is more or less the culture and knowledge from thousands of years and countless different tribes and cultures, fused into one piece. Spread worldwide by preaching, manuscripts, monks, monasteries and by the sword. Compared to most ideologies that only spread by the sword, ancient and modern. The default human condition is to spread by breeding among your own people, and exterminate other people. Sometimes just the men and the boy children, to breed with the women. Sometimes by exterminating everybody and even eating them. Cannibalism and human sacrifice was the default human condition for tens of thousands of years, or maybe even for millions of years, before the light came to man. Thinking that religion is only war and oppression is like thinking math is only for calculating artillery. It's a limited perspective.
- kashunstva 3y ago
  > It is far better to fill it with a stable, local, hope-giving religion. If it's a binary choice of opiate addiction vs. religious practice, sure. But for many, the hole that some fill with religion is filled with other sorts of meaning-giving practices. Not to take away from the comfort, stability and hope that religious affiliation provides for many; but for others the source of connection to the transcendent and to contributing to concerns beyond oneself comes in different forms.
- jghn 3y ago
  This was one of the topics covered by "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong [1]. While she didn't propose people should find religion per se, she did present the argument that a god sized hole exists in our psyche, so if one is not religious it needs to be filled somehow. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God
- BizarreByte 3y ago
  > I have come to the conclusion that lots of humans have a religion-shaped hole in their psyche. I increasingly believe the same and I don't believe the vast majority are capable of filling it on their own in a healthy way, but there are a lot of other social factors at play too.
- oreally 3y ago
  The side effect of that is that some people will get it into their head that they're the chosen ones and push their religion onto others at great cost. Religious nations have already shown that. Consider video games as the opiate instead. At least they don't fuck up your health and you might come out with stronger problem solving skills.
hifreq 3y ago
This assessment contradicts all evidence we have on the homelessness in the US. Unemployment rate is very low in the US, shelters are very often half-empty. Drug-addicts and homeless people refuse help (unless it's cash or free drugs). The idea that we just need to invest more and more into this extremely corrupt industry has no merit.
- Swizec 3y ago
  > Unemployment rate is very low in the US Caveat: unemployment statistics don't count people who aren't seeking work. Which chronically homeless and/or drug addicted people usually do not. > The unemployment rate measures the share of workers in the labor force who do not currently have a job but are actively looking for work. People who have not looked for work in the past four weeks are not included in this measure. https://www.epi.org/newsroom/useful_definitions/ https://www.epi.org/newsroom/useful_definitions/ Basically what unemployment rate tells us is that USA has enough jobs for people who want to work. It says nothing about people who have given up looking.
  - hifreq 3y ago
    > Basically what unemployment rate tells us is that USA has enough jobs for people who want to work. It says nothing about people who have given up looking. That's a fair point. If people are not seeking work but claim benefits indefinitely, doesn't this require a different solution than blaming the society and expecting taxpayers to take care of that?
    - nradov 3y ago
      Which benefits are you referring to? Unemployment insurance and welfare are generally time limited. Disability payments can last forever, specifically because those people can't work. (There is a small amount of disability fraud by people who are capable of working but choose not too, and are able to convince physicians to approve their claims.)
      - hifreq 3y ago

wussboy 3y ago

Do you have any evidence for this?

josefritz 3y ago
This is well documented and even acknowledged by the US government. https://waysandmeans.house.gov/2-5-million-uncounted-unemployed-currently-ignored-in-official-unemployment-calculations/ https://waysandmeans.house.gov/2-5-million-uncounted-unemplo... https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2020/05/08/the-unseen-unemployed-why-skyrocketing-unemployment-numbers-are-incomplete/?sh=2a5901d314f5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2020/05/08/the-un...

afarrell 3y ago

I have come to the conclusion that lots of humans have a religion-shaped hole in their psyche. It is far better to fill it with a stable, local, hope-giving religion. Hymns are a better opiate of the masses than fentanyl.

rpmisms 3y ago
Almost like we are hard-wired for belief. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.h...
hifreq 3y ago
While I agree that the reduction in the role of religion in the US is partially to blame for the increase in severe cases of drug addition, the idea that we need to bring religion back essentially to control people is extremely patronizing. Basically, we are saying that some people are too stupid to live productively if they are not controlled by fairy tales. This is the same approach as we are seeing in the "far left" bubble in the context of this issue: street drug addicts have no responsibilities and agency, the society has to accommodate their every whim, including ignoring all illegal activities they are engaged in. Until we acknowledge that benefits come with responsibilities we are not going to solve this.
- anon291 3y ago
  It's not fairy tales. Its human need for attachment to something greater. America has not filled that with anything else. The previous flag waving civic nationalism has become demonized so now there's nothing.
  - hifreq 3y ago
    > America has not filled that with anything else That's not an issue that America has to solve (i.e. the government or the society). It's an individual need that every individual is responsible for.
    - BizarreByte 3y ago
      > It's an individual need that every individual is responsible for. You shouldn't be surprised then when vast amounts of people fail to fill a hole that for the vast majority of human history was filled for them. I honestly believe most people simply aren't capable of making their on meaning or purpose out of nothing.
      - hifreq 3y ago
        I am not surprised by that in the slightest, and I agree that most people struggle with that, myself included. It is THE struggle of our lives. Being told as a child that if you take drugs you will go to hell is not a meaningful alternative. Not for incredibly complex thinking beings that we are. Submitting to Jesus, being a part of the "right" religious group is not a benefit to the human race as a whole. It's poison, promoted by power hungry maniacs.
1letterunixname 3y ago
This is also true. The decline in community (where religion played a large part in cementing personal and local bonds) and increase in anomie has led not just to deaths of despair and to other symptoms not just loneliness and depression, but on the fringes of alienation and disconnection to where some volatile people go as far hate-fueled "blaze of glory" mass shootings. I find one of the biggest losses, especially in dense cities, is that the churches and community orgs there often lack local, long-term ties to said communities. Also, there are a number of religious institutions in big cities that are sometimes open only on (Friday, Saturday, or Sunday depending on their beliefs) and don't provide as much closeness and synomie for people as rural religious institutions do. I wouldn't recommend that all things must attempt to recapture the 1950's apartheid and social conservativism in all regards, but a crucial linchpin of a functional society appears to be missing. It is not necessarily religion or faith, but it includes a lack of love for, and trust of, others where America went from community-individual balanced to hyperindividualism with a dysfunctional social safety net.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >I wouldn't recommend that all things must attempt to recapture the 1950's apartheid and social conservativism in all regards I don't think you can avoid this. If you bring back religion, you necessarily have to accept apartheid and social conservatism. The two go hand-in-hand. Religion probably worked well for bonding communities back when communities were small and homogeneous and had little contact with the outside world. But in an era of global travel and communications, it doesn't work: we have to have huge wars to decide whose religion is the correct one. Just look at what's going on with Israel lately. Different religions can't peacefully co-exist, so devastating wars are necessary to maintain order.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    > Religion probably worked well and bonding communities back when communities were small and homogeneous and had little contact with the outside world. Religion has been more impactful in spreading knowledge and connecting cultures around the world than the printing press, radio and the internet combined. Religion for a long time was the only contact with the outside world. Christianity today is more or less the culture and knowledge from thousands of years and countless different tribes and cultures, fused into one piece. Spread worldwide by preaching, manuscripts, monks, monasteries and by the sword. Compared to most ideologies that only spread by the sword, ancient and modern. The default human condition is to spread by breeding among your own people, and exterminate other people. Sometimes just the men and the boy children, to breed with the women. Sometimes by exterminating everybody and even eating them. Cannibalism and human sacrifice was the default human condition for tens of thousands of years, or maybe even for millions of years, before the light came to man. Thinking that religion is only war and oppression is like thinking math is only for calculating artillery. It's a limited perspective.
kashunstva 3y ago
> It is far better to fill it with a stable, local, hope-giving religion. If it's a binary choice of opiate addiction vs. religious practice, sure. But for many, the hole that some fill with religion is filled with other sorts of meaning-giving practices. Not to take away from the comfort, stability and hope that religious affiliation provides for many; but for others the source of connection to the transcendent and to contributing to concerns beyond oneself comes in different forms.
jghn 3y ago
This was one of the topics covered by "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong [1]. While she didn't propose people should find religion per se, she did present the argument that a god sized hole exists in our psyche, so if one is not religious it needs to be filled somehow. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_God
BizarreByte 3y ago
> I have come to the conclusion that lots of humans have a religion-shaped hole in their psyche. I increasingly believe the same and I don't believe the vast majority are capable of filling it on their own in a healthy way, but there are a lot of other social factors at play too.
oreally 3y ago
The side effect of that is that some people will get it into their head that they're the chosen ones and push their religion onto others at great cost. Religious nations have already shown that. Consider video games as the opiate instead. At least they don't fuck up your health and you might come out with stronger problem solving skills.

hifreq 3y ago

This assessment contradicts all evidence we have on the homelessness in the US. Unemployment rate is very low in the US, shelters are very often half-empty. Drug-addicts and homeless people refuse help (unless it's cash or free drugs). The idea that we just need to invest more and more into this extremely corrupt industry has no merit.

Swizec 3y ago
> Unemployment rate is very low in the US Caveat: unemployment statistics don't count people who aren't seeking work. Which chronically homeless and/or drug addicted people usually do not. > The unemployment rate measures the share of workers in the labor force who do not currently have a job but are actively looking for work. People who have not looked for work in the past four weeks are not included in this measure. https://www.epi.org/newsroom/useful_definitions/ https://www.epi.org/newsroom/useful_definitions/ Basically what unemployment rate tells us is that USA has enough jobs for people who want to work. It says nothing about people who have given up looking.
- hifreq 3y ago
  > Basically what unemployment rate tells us is that USA has enough jobs for people who want to work. It says nothing about people who have given up looking. That's a fair point. If people are not seeking work but claim benefits indefinitely, doesn't this require a different solution than blaming the society and expecting taxpayers to take care of that?
  - nradov 3y ago
    Which benefits are you referring to? Unemployment insurance and welfare are generally time limited. Disability payments can last forever, specifically because those people can't work. (There is a small amount of disability fraud by people who are capable of working but choose not too, and are able to convince physicians to approve their claims.)
    - hifreq 3y ago