3 ms·

What if the underlying issue is capitalism itself though?

by spaceribs 3y ago

golergka 3y ago
You're right: if they didn't have food, they wouldn't be able to afford drugs either.
- spaceribs 3y ago
  There is an extensive market around drug addiction, be it prisons, police budgets, drug companies, rehab clinics, and of course news media/politics. You didn't really answer the question and just jumped to your own conclusion.
chaseha 3y ago
So what alternative are you proposing? Socialist countries have addiction issues too...
- spaceribs 3y ago
  When I think about the endgame of capitalism, I think about the kids in coalmines and the gilded age, the extractive and horrible conditions that allow for widespread unfulfilling company-store-owned worklife to flourish under the guise of progress. I'm not sure if there are any solid alternatives for this endgame actually, but we may already be in it, and pervasive addiction to me seem to go hand it hand with unhappiness.
0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
Perhaps the problem is lack of magic pixie dust. If we voted for leaders with the magic dust, everything would be solved. https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/ https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-th...
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  You mean like in Europe? But seriously, though our GDP may be lagging behind the US, we do seem to be able to deal with homelessness and drug addiction somewhat better.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
    https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-ministe... https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/11/28/in-sweden-billionaires-are-surprisingly-popular https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/11/28/in-sweden-bill... I'm always happy to learn from countries which have succeeded at something, but insofar as Europe has succeeded at things, it hasn't been a simple matter of "end capitalism". The devil is in the details. Also remember that Europe freerides on the US a great deal. They get bargain prices on drugs+health innovations discovered by US companies, and have an amazing defensive arrangement in NATO that comes at low cost for them and the US hardly benefits from.
    - somewhereoutth 3y ago
      During the cold war it was realized that unless the broad mass of people in Europe were reasonably happy / well off, they would turn to communism as it was right next door. The US had no such compelling imperative, so capitalism was allowed a freer rein. Drugs+innovations are largely funded by the public sector (see a previous discussion on HN I can't find right now), but in Europe we don't have a predatory healthcare industry. As for NATO, that was formed to stop the entirety of the Eurasian landmass falling under Soviet control. It is hard to imagine an isolated US fairing too well in that kind of world.
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
        >Drugs+innovations are largely funded by the public sector (see a previous discussion on HN I can't find right now) Insofar as Europe pays less for drugs than the US, the US is subsidizing drug development. (I.e. when pharma companies decide whether they will recoup their R&D costs for a new drug, they are disproportionately looking to countries that pay the most.) Public/private doesn't affect my point here -- the US shouldn't necessarily copy the European model if the success of the European model is based on freeriding, even if it's freeriding on US govt spending. >As for NATO, that was formed to stop the entirety of the Eurasian landmass falling under Soviet control. It is hard to imagine an isolated US fairing too well in that kind of world. The US has oceans on both sides and friendly nations on our borders. We're gonna be fine. Isolationism was working perfectly well for us prior to WW2. If you really believe in the European model, you should advocate for Europe to defend itself. Stand up for what you believe in. If the European model is truly effective, then Europe should be perfectly capable of taking care of itself. The US can then offer humanitarian alliances to other, poorer countries that actually need help.
at_a_remove 3y ago
I would probably ask myself if substance abuse existed in communist countries, socialist countries, and so on. If it did, I might not be too eager to point the blame at capitalism.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
analognoise 3y ago
In the Soviet Union, it was illegal not to work. They would have killed (not a high bar for them given their body count, so excuse the colloquialism) to have a camera watching every worker. Now we have Amazon drivers and packers with cameras in their face every day, working themselves so hard that they have to piss into bottles - every motion, breath, and second tracked - and people are convinced this is freedom, that our system is freedom. What a joke.

What if the underlying issue is capitalism itself though?

golergka 3y ago

You're right: if they didn't have food, they wouldn't be able to afford drugs either.

spaceribs 3y ago
There is an extensive market around drug addiction, be it prisons, police budgets, drug companies, rehab clinics, and of course news media/politics. You didn't really answer the question and just jumped to your own conclusion.

chaseha 3y ago

So what alternative are you proposing? Socialist countries have addiction issues too...

spaceribs 3y ago
When I think about the endgame of capitalism, I think about the kids in coalmines and the gilded age, the extractive and horrible conditions that allow for widespread unfulfilling company-store-owned worklife to flourish under the guise of progress. I'm not sure if there are any solid alternatives for this endgame actually, but we may already be in it, and pervasive addiction to me seem to go hand it hand with unhappiness.

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago

Perhaps the problem is lack of magic pixie dust. If we voted for leaders with the magic dust, everything would be solved. https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/ https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-th...

somewhereoutth 3y ago
You mean like in Europe? But seriously, though our GDP may be lagging behind the US, we do seem to be able to deal with homelessness and drug addiction somewhat better.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
  https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-ministe... https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/11/28/in-sweden-billionaires-are-surprisingly-popular https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/11/28/in-sweden-bill... I'm always happy to learn from countries which have succeeded at something, but insofar as Europe has succeeded at things, it hasn't been a simple matter of "end capitalism". The devil is in the details. Also remember that Europe freerides on the US a great deal. They get bargain prices on drugs+health innovations discovered by US companies, and have an amazing defensive arrangement in NATO that comes at low cost for them and the US hardly benefits from.
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    During the cold war it was realized that unless the broad mass of people in Europe were reasonably happy / well off, they would turn to communism as it was right next door. The US had no such compelling imperative, so capitalism was allowed a freer rein. Drugs+innovations are largely funded by the public sector (see a previous discussion on HN I can't find right now), but in Europe we don't have a predatory healthcare industry. As for NATO, that was formed to stop the entirety of the Eurasian landmass falling under Soviet control. It is hard to imagine an isolated US fairing too well in that kind of world.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
      >Drugs+innovations are largely funded by the public sector (see a previous discussion on HN I can't find right now) Insofar as Europe pays less for drugs than the US, the US is subsidizing drug development. (I.e. when pharma companies decide whether they will recoup their R&D costs for a new drug, they are disproportionately looking to countries that pay the most.) Public/private doesn't affect my point here -- the US shouldn't necessarily copy the European model if the success of the European model is based on freeriding, even if it's freeriding on US govt spending. >As for NATO, that was formed to stop the entirety of the Eurasian landmass falling under Soviet control. It is hard to imagine an isolated US fairing too well in that kind of world. The US has oceans on both sides and friendly nations on our borders. We're gonna be fine. Isolationism was working perfectly well for us prior to WW2. If you really believe in the European model, you should advocate for Europe to defend itself. Stand up for what you believe in. If the European model is truly effective, then Europe should be perfectly capable of taking care of itself. The US can then offer humanitarian alliances to other, poorer countries that actually need help.

at_a_remove 3y ago

I would probably ask myself if substance abuse existed in communist countries, socialist countries, and so on. If it did, I might not be too eager to point the blame at capitalism.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

analognoise 3y ago

In the Soviet Union, it was illegal not to work. They would have killed (not a high bar for them given their body count, so excuse the colloquialism) to have a camera watching every worker. Now we have Amazon drivers and packers with cameras in their face every day, working themselves so hard that they have to piss into bottles - every motion, breath, and second tracked - and people are convinced this is freedom, that our system is freedom. What a joke.