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Yet 3x more Europeans immigrate to the US than Americans going the other direction. People vote with their feet and I feel like the EU vs US online discource is

Yet 3x more Europeans immigrate to the US than Americans going the other direction. People vote with their feet and I feel like the EU vs US online discource is mainly based on vibes rather than facts.

lordnacho 3y ago
Not sure this means anything. Almost every European country has a huge number of English speakers. Few Americans speak one of the local languages of Europe well enough to live there. Plus, we'd have to assume people were well informed in general about living conditions in various places.
- hansvm 3y ago
  Anecdotally, not a single American I've talked to who was on the fence about moving to Europe was deterred by not knowing the native language well enough. Whether overly optimistic or not, the prospect of spending a few months learning well enough to barely get by and spending more time later to become more adept never amounted to even a footnote in the deciding factors.
  - lordnacho 3y ago
    Sure, they convince themselves that everyone speaks English, which is generally true in the kinds of places that hire expats. But plenty of them find it hard to fit in socially, and then leave later.
    - trgn 3y ago
      Yeah, the language factor is hugely underrated. I think it's less the money aspect, and more the fact that American society is more bland, uniform. It's easier to fit in. In Europe, unless it's a true international metro (amsterdam, london, brussels, ...), there's a huge cultural barrier. You just can't hitch into it as an adult. Your children will fit in, but not you.
    - hansvm 3y ago
      That doesn't seem relevant to your original point. Is it supposed to be, or is this a separate thread of conversation?
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  It's irrelevant, you can get by with English for the basics in most parts of Europe unless you move to small villages. If that weren't true then the EU's obsession with freedom of movement would be pointless, because English is the only language that is universally taught in Europe.
askonomm 3y ago
Well firstly there's about 2x more Europeans than Americans by population, and secondly 44% of Americans don't even own a passport.
- missedthecue 3y ago
  Only 41% of Germans have a passport. I don't see your point. We can adjust for population and the data is still clear. EU citizens would rather be in the US than the other way around. And the EU is only about 30% larger not 100%.
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    Well, Germans without a passport can still travel all around the Europe. Passport is only needed if you plan to go outside EU - that should be a factor in this comparison.
    - missedthecue 3y ago
      And a US passport is only needed if you travel outside of the 50 states that comprise the union.
      - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
        true, but it's not the same thing An European citizen can go to Egypt or Estonia or the Canary Islands or Iceland or Norway or Switzerland without a passport OTOH it's easier to learn English for an European - we all study it in primary schools - and go to the US than for an American to learn Norwegian and move to Norway. It's also a lot less of a cultural shock to go EU->USA than the other way around.
  - askonomm 3y ago
    So now you are suddenly talking about the EU? I thought we were talking about Europe. Europe is not the same as European Union, and Europe is in fact more than double the population of U.S. Germany, being one of the most backwards countries in the entire Europe, is not a good representation of every European country.
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
that's a textbook example of survivorship bias. those who would benefit from migrating to Europe cannot afford to, are greatly discouraged or straight up can't (passport, language barriers etc) OTOH most of those going to the US right now are from eastern Europe, following the flood after the wall fell. Or people who are going there to increase their salary, not necessarily their quality of life. I have several friends who are working for one of the FAANGS in the US but come back to Italy for medical check-ups or holidays because here's cheaper, safer and it's a better place to spend your free time or raise kids. European population in the US is pretty stable though. In the end people of European descent are still the largest ethnic group in the US of A, the USA were founded mostly by anglo-germans while the opposite has never been true.
thefz 3y ago
It's easier for an European to already know English, rather than the opposite.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  That doesn't really explain why the number of British expats living in America is 3x the amount of American expats living in Britain. Coupled with the fact that America has ~5x the population of Britain, that means a British person is 15x more likely to move to America than an American person is to move to Britain.

lordnacho 3y ago

Not sure this means anything. Almost every European country has a huge number of English speakers. Few Americans speak one of the local languages of Europe well enough to live there. Plus, we'd have to assume people were well informed in general about living conditions in various places.

hansvm 3y ago
Anecdotally, not a single American I've talked to who was on the fence about moving to Europe was deterred by not knowing the native language well enough. Whether overly optimistic or not, the prospect of spending a few months learning well enough to barely get by and spending more time later to become more adept never amounted to even a footnote in the deciding factors.
- lordnacho 3y ago
  Sure, they convince themselves that everyone speaks English, which is generally true in the kinds of places that hire expats. But plenty of them find it hard to fit in socially, and then leave later.
  - trgn 3y ago
    Yeah, the language factor is hugely underrated. I think it's less the money aspect, and more the fact that American society is more bland, uniform. It's easier to fit in. In Europe, unless it's a true international metro (amsterdam, london, brussels, ...), there's a huge cultural barrier. You just can't hitch into it as an adult. Your children will fit in, but not you.
  - hansvm 3y ago
    That doesn't seem relevant to your original point. Is it supposed to be, or is this a separate thread of conversation?
nvm0n2 3y ago
It's irrelevant, you can get by with English for the basics in most parts of Europe unless you move to small villages. If that weren't true then the EU's obsession with freedom of movement would be pointless, because English is the only language that is universally taught in Europe.

askonomm 3y ago

Well firstly there's about 2x more Europeans than Americans by population, and secondly 44% of Americans don't even own a passport.

missedthecue 3y ago
Only 41% of Germans have a passport. I don't see your point. We can adjust for population and the data is still clear. EU citizens would rather be in the US than the other way around. And the EU is only about 30% larger not 100%.
- Detrytus 3y ago
  Well, Germans without a passport can still travel all around the Europe. Passport is only needed if you plan to go outside EU - that should be a factor in this comparison.
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    And a US passport is only needed if you travel outside of the 50 states that comprise the union.
    - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      true, but it's not the same thing An European citizen can go to Egypt or Estonia or the Canary Islands or Iceland or Norway or Switzerland without a passport OTOH it's easier to learn English for an European - we all study it in primary schools - and go to the US than for an American to learn Norwegian and move to Norway. It's also a lot less of a cultural shock to go EU->USA than the other way around.
- askonomm 3y ago
  So now you are suddenly talking about the EU? I thought we were talking about Europe. Europe is not the same as European Union, and Europe is in fact more than double the population of U.S. Germany, being one of the most backwards countries in the entire Europe, is not a good representation of every European country.

peoplefromibiza 3y ago

that's a textbook example of survivorship bias. those who would benefit from migrating to Europe cannot afford to, are greatly discouraged or straight up can't (passport, language barriers etc) OTOH most of those going to the US right now are from eastern Europe, following the flood after the wall fell. Or people who are going there to increase their salary, not necessarily their quality of life. I have several friends who are working for one of the FAANGS in the US but come back to Italy for medical check-ups or holidays because here's cheaper, safer and it's a better place to spend your free time or raise kids. European population in the US is pretty stable though. In the end people of European descent are still the largest ethnic group in the US of A, the USA were founded mostly by anglo-germans while the opposite has never been true.

thefz 3y ago

It's easier for an European to already know English, rather than the opposite.

oh_sigh 3y ago
That doesn't really explain why the number of British expats living in America is 3x the amount of American expats living in Britain. Coupled with the fact that America has ~5x the population of Britain, that means a British person is 15x more likely to move to America than an American person is to move to Britain.