6 ms·

The scientific evidence for Dual N Back improving fluid intelligence is actually fairly weak as far as I can tell, see this critique and the other studies discu

The scientific evidence for Dual N Back improving fluid intelligence is actually fairly weak as far as I can tell, see this critique and the other studies discussed: http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#criticism http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#criticism My personal theory is that solving difficult math and programming problems is a better use of time than doing working memory training exercises. I'd guess that solving math and programming problems improve working memory just as fast as playing 'brain games', and they have the additional benefit of improving one's math and programming skill. Of course, this is just a guess of mine that is unsupported by any experimental evidence.

palguay 15y ago
In this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141035501/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141035501/ the author says that solving simple math equations (addition,subtraction ,division) fast is much more stimulating than doing complex math.
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  And the argument and evidence he provides is what?
  - palguay 15y ago
    I do not have that book with me now but he provides brain scans in the experiments he conducted, most of the book is just exercises (math equations , stroop color and word recall)
  - hackinthebochs 15y ago
    Seems very true in my opinion. I've always excelled at math, essentially have a bachelors in mathematics, etc etc. My weakness has always been getting the details of the "basic" math correct. Higher math is about logic, abstractions and applying them to solve problems. Basic math is about holding bits of information in your head and manipulating them accurately. I absolutely believe that basic math taxes your working memory system more than advanced math does.
    - gala8y 15y ago
      I just skimmed Outliers book by Malcom Gladwell. One of the things author discusses are differences in number systems in different cultures. He argues (in fact quoting Stanislas Dehaene [1]), that in eastern languages number words are shorter and faster to pronounce. Thus, you can hold more of them at a time in memory (short term memory is very time sensitive). You could say that you dont really need to 'pronounce' stuff to make mental operations, still they have sensory form (be it visual, auditory,...), so argument holds. He also brings up the issue of regularity of eastern number systems making it much easier to do calculations in these languages - to an extent that it gives eastern children real advantage in math. Developmentally speaking. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislas_Dehaene#Numerical_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislas_Dehaene#Numerical_co...
      - hackinthebochs 15y ago
        Sounds very true in my experience. This is one of the reasons why naming (in programming and everything else) is so crucial: good naming directly influences how easily one can mentally manipulate the objects in question. This is another reason why mathematicians work so hard to create concise abstractions. I'll have to take a look at that book, sounds fascinating. Thanks.
- K2h 15y ago
  I think he helped with brain age, which had a good reputation, and then a mediocre one for actually working. Despite that, after conversing with my wife we are of the opinion that fast simple math may be promising. http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Y9QLGBWxkmRRzsQEQtvqGqZ63_CjS_9F http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Y9QLGBWxkmRRzsQEQtvqGqZ...
moldbug 15y ago
That's a brutal critique which comes close to a charge of scientific fraud. I'd be curious to see a response. If there isn't one, I know what to think.
- mhartl 15y ago
  Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back) links to a semi-rebuttal: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289610001091 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289610... Naturally, the full article is behind a paywall.
  - gwern 15y ago
    Jaeggi 2010 http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#jaeggi-2010 http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#jaeggi-2010 did not address the main criticism of Moody, and administered the tests speeded as in Jaeggi 2008.

palguay 15y ago

In this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141035501/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141035501/ the author says that solving simple math equations (addition,subtraction ,division) fast is much more stimulating than doing complex math.

joe_the_user 15y ago
And the argument and evidence he provides is what?
- palguay 15y ago
  I do not have that book with me now but he provides brain scans in the experiments he conducted, most of the book is just exercises (math equations , stroop color and word recall)
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
  Seems very true in my opinion. I've always excelled at math, essentially have a bachelors in mathematics, etc etc. My weakness has always been getting the details of the "basic" math correct. Higher math is about logic, abstractions and applying them to solve problems. Basic math is about holding bits of information in your head and manipulating them accurately. I absolutely believe that basic math taxes your working memory system more than advanced math does.
  - gala8y 15y ago
    I just skimmed Outliers book by Malcom Gladwell. One of the things author discusses are differences in number systems in different cultures. He argues (in fact quoting Stanislas Dehaene [1]), that in eastern languages number words are shorter and faster to pronounce. Thus, you can hold more of them at a time in memory (short term memory is very time sensitive). You could say that you dont really need to 'pronounce' stuff to make mental operations, still they have sensory form (be it visual, auditory,...), so argument holds. He also brings up the issue of regularity of eastern number systems making it much easier to do calculations in these languages - to an extent that it gives eastern children real advantage in math. Developmentally speaking. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislas_Dehaene#Numerical_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislas_Dehaene#Numerical_co...
    - hackinthebochs 15y ago
      Sounds very true in my experience. This is one of the reasons why naming (in programming and everything else) is so crucial: good naming directly influences how easily one can mentally manipulate the objects in question. This is another reason why mathematicians work so hard to create concise abstractions. I'll have to take a look at that book, sounds fascinating. Thanks.
K2h 15y ago
I think he helped with brain age, which had a good reputation, and then a mediocre one for actually working. Despite that, after conversing with my wife we are of the opinion that fast simple math may be promising. http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Y9QLGBWxkmRRzsQEQtvqGqZ63_CjS_9F http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Y9QLGBWxkmRRzsQEQtvqGqZ...

moldbug 15y ago

That's a brutal critique which comes close to a charge of scientific fraud. I'd be curious to see a response. If there isn't one, I know what to think.

mhartl 15y ago
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back) links to a semi-rebuttal: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289610001091 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289610... Naturally, the full article is behind a paywall.
- gwern 15y ago
  Jaeggi 2010 http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#jaeggi-2010 http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#jaeggi-2010 did not address the main criticism of Moody, and administered the tests speeded as in Jaeggi 2008.