4 ms·

"Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. Typically i think, he isn't blaming Israelis or Jews, but Israel as in "I

by orwin 3y ago

"Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. Typically i think, he isn't blaming Israelis or Jews, but Israel as in "Israel's government policy of bombing children". The others are from people i hope are banned. >I wish I could bring myself to believe that. The reason i said "a big part" and not "a majority", is because sadly i think what was a majority in 2007 declined in the last 13 years. My father cried when Rabin died. Since 2018 and what happened to the mosque esplanade, i think he has a hard time making any difference between the government and the people of Israel ([edit] i convinced him this weekend it wasn't). > I'm trying to understand why so many just reflexively assume Israel is lying, to the point that raising any mitigating or nuance at all is met with relentless, seething hostility. I always assume Israeli government is lying. Why? My father was born in Jerusalem-east, in a christian hospital, and his godmother (who was 25 at the time) is a Sister, and probably the most caring, forgiving person i know. She worked there for 50 years, at a school/hospital used by christians and muslims, operated by all three religions. The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. The school/hospital was also expulsed, quite recently (2018 i think), with promises for "help" with relocation. Promise from the Israeli government. The staff is halved, as most workers couldn't follow the relocation. I went there once (family trip, except my father was forbidden to enter at the last moment). I discovered Haaretz, which is now my primary source for what happen in Israel. When they agree with Netanyahou, i believe him (and now re-read the 1rst sentence :) ).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rendall 3y ago
> The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. That sucks. What was the legal justification for it? I assume he tried to go to court and got no justice? > "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. I have to admit, when I read this, I assumed it was more of the same and so I was almost too quick to dismiss the rest of your post. I'm glad I didn't. So, given your experience, when the IDF says they are not targeting civilians and that Hamas is using them as human shields, do you think they are lying and are actually targeting civilians? Or just being reckless?
- orwin 3y ago
  I don't know, he was expropriated like 15 years before I went to Israel. The justifications to relocate the maternity/orphanage/school is that the land would be used for other social services, the orphanage part wasn't really used anymore, and charity work would be more useful outside of Jerusalem city. I don't have any experience. I trust the Mossad to resist political pressure (the fact that their Qatar meeting to secure funds for Hamas in 2021 leaked the day after to me is the last data point). I don't trust the IDF generals to do the same sadly. But I do trust that some IDF members will try to do the right thing, and will take initiatives to limit civilian casualties. I think the pressure from IDF soldiers towards their likud-supported generals was high and that's why the last two weeks, less war crimes were reported on: a lot less were happening. I do think the Likud did not change since '95, and that their less intelligent supporters are all as manipulated as Yigal Amir was, only now, they are snipers, drone pilots and even generals.
  - rendall 3y ago
    I really appreciate your perspective. Got an idea of a way out for Israelis and Palestinians? Is there a path toward peace and no genocide?
    - orwin 3y ago
      Not in the short or medium term, sadly. In 50 years? The one state solution was impossible, since at least the 6 day war, but probably earlier. The issue is that the PLO pushed for a one-state solution until 89. Then the PLO and Israel's government agreed on a two state solution, with only the likud as a major party against it. Rabin was assassinated, the talks failed, at least temporarily (as revanchism died, the PLO main parties all agreed two state was the solution). But the process existed and could start again. Then Hamas arrived, saying they supported a two state solution too, but they were less corrupt than Fatah (and probably also appealed to mix of radicalized islamists and revanchists, ex-Fatah armed groups). They were elected, and immediately removed elections, removed all UDP members (pesky democrats!) and whatever was left of free speech in Gaza disappeared. Also they now support a one state solution, and are genocidal. So as long as Hamas and Likud exist as strong political entities, the two state solution is impossible imho (as Hamas will prop up Likud, Likud with fund Hamas, and savvy politicians from other parts of the Middle East will do both to weaken Israel and take over as the area powerhouses. Which they already did) One way, and at this point it might be Israel policy (hopefully it's that and not worse), is that the Gaza strip is bombed so hard, the UN has to take over. Wait for 10 years, create a two state solution without Gaza at first (with Gaza still under UN rules), then after 30 more years (so revanchism has time to die), incorporate Gaza, however they vote for: as a Palestinian enclave, or as an Israeli state. I'm really sorry for Gazaouis, because it's unjust, they fucked up one election and it fucked up their autonomy, Likud politicians helped Hamas almost as much and will never feel a thousand percent of the pain Gazaoui are suffering and will suffer, but it seems like the best option right now, the only one that doesn't involve a war or a genocide.

by orwin 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rendall 3y ago

> The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. That sucks. What was the legal justification for it? I assume he tried to go to court and got no justice? > "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. I have to admit, when I read this, I assumed it was more of the same and so I was almost too quick to dismiss the rest of your post. I'm glad I didn't. So, given your experience, when the IDF says they are not targeting civilians and that Hamas is using them as human shields, do you think they are lying and are actually targeting civilians? Or just being reckless?

orwin 3y ago
I don't know, he was expropriated like 15 years before I went to Israel. The justifications to relocate the maternity/orphanage/school is that the land would be used for other social services, the orphanage part wasn't really used anymore, and charity work would be more useful outside of Jerusalem city. I don't have any experience. I trust the Mossad to resist political pressure (the fact that their Qatar meeting to secure funds for Hamas in 2021 leaked the day after to me is the last data point). I don't trust the IDF generals to do the same sadly. But I do trust that some IDF members will try to do the right thing, and will take initiatives to limit civilian casualties. I think the pressure from IDF soldiers towards their likud-supported generals was high and that's why the last two weeks, less war crimes were reported on: a lot less were happening. I do think the Likud did not change since '95, and that their less intelligent supporters are all as manipulated as Yigal Amir was, only now, they are snipers, drone pilots and even generals.
- rendall 3y ago
  I really appreciate your perspective. Got an idea of a way out for Israelis and Palestinians? Is there a path toward peace and no genocide?
  - orwin 3y ago
    Not in the short or medium term, sadly. In 50 years? The one state solution was impossible, since at least the 6 day war, but probably earlier. The issue is that the PLO pushed for a one-state solution until 89. Then the PLO and Israel's government agreed on a two state solution, with only the likud as a major party against it. Rabin was assassinated, the talks failed, at least temporarily (as revanchism died, the PLO main parties all agreed two state was the solution). But the process existed and could start again. Then Hamas arrived, saying they supported a two state solution too, but they were less corrupt than Fatah (and probably also appealed to mix of radicalized islamists and revanchists, ex-Fatah armed groups). They were elected, and immediately removed elections, removed all UDP members (pesky democrats!) and whatever was left of free speech in Gaza disappeared. Also they now support a one state solution, and are genocidal. So as long as Hamas and Likud exist as strong political entities, the two state solution is impossible imho (as Hamas will prop up Likud, Likud with fund Hamas, and savvy politicians from other parts of the Middle East will do both to weaken Israel and take over as the area powerhouses. Which they already did) One way, and at this point it might be Israel policy (hopefully it's that and not worse), is that the Gaza strip is bombed so hard, the UN has to take over. Wait for 10 years, create a two state solution without Gaza at first (with Gaza still under UN rules), then after 30 more years (so revanchism has time to die), incorporate Gaza, however they vote for: as a Palestinian enclave, or as an Israeli state. I'm really sorry for Gazaouis, because it's unjust, they fucked up one election and it fucked up their autonomy, Likud politicians helped Hamas almost as much and will never feel a thousand percent of the pain Gazaoui are suffering and will suffer, but it seems like the best option right now, the only one that doesn't involve a war or a genocide.