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I 100% agree that free speech and academic freedom protections must include even reprehensible speech. I also think that criticism of Israel on an internationa

I 100% agree that free speech and academic freedom protections must include even reprehensible speech. I also think that criticism of Israel on an international/California forum like this is probably anti-Semitic, but at least misinformed. I also dispute that the "middle east scholars" are afraid to voice their anti-Israel opinions. It makes no sense. Everybody and their grandmother is voicing criticism of Israel. BBC, WHO, UN, Harvard, U Penn, MIT, HRW, Justin Trudeau, even Paul Graham, on and on. On the contrary, assuming Israeli good faith gets you called a white supremacist, disturbed, a genocide supporter, a Jew (used as an insult) (source: happened to me here on HN, I can give you the actual post urls). Even simple expression of condolence to an Israeli gets nasty insults and downvotes (yep, here in HN). What is legitimately horrible is the call to genocide "Zionists".

orwin 3y ago
I think the issue is ignoring that a big part of the criticism of Israel is not actually a criticism of Israel, but criticisms of post Sharon government (or post Rabin for true leftists). We know who propped up, armed and supported Hamas in Gaza. Also, yes, actual urls of people throwing insults like this are more than welcome. Hopefully if they're down voted enough they'll be banned.
- rendall 3y ago
  > a big part of the criticism of Israel is not actually a criticism of Israel I wish I could bring myself to believe that. I'm trying to understand why so many just reflexively assume Israel is lying, to the point that raising any mitigating or nuance at all is met with relentless, seething hostility. Here we go, cavalcade of nastiness. In response to "My condolences" to a poster who said that he knew some of the children who died in the October 7th attack: "this person is lying..." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38577765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38577765 "Maybe you're not a white supremacist but you sure act like one like all Israeli allies" Added bonus is that he tracked down my full name and used it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38581383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38581383 "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38591023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38591023 In response to my saying that yes, actually anti-Semitism means anti-Jew: "Ask me how I know you're Jewish" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38585503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38585503 There's more, but that's enough for now.
  - orwin 3y ago
    "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. Typically i think, he isn't blaming Israelis or Jews, but Israel as in "Israel's government policy of bombing children". The others are from people i hope are banned. >I wish I could bring myself to believe that. The reason i said "a big part" and not "a majority", is because sadly i think what was a majority in 2007 declined in the last 13 years. My father cried when Rabin died. Since 2018 and what happened to the mosque esplanade, i think he has a hard time making any difference between the government and the people of Israel ([edit] i convinced him this weekend it wasn't). > I'm trying to understand why so many just reflexively assume Israel is lying, to the point that raising any mitigating or nuance at all is met with relentless, seething hostility. I always assume Israeli government is lying. Why? My father was born in Jerusalem-east, in a christian hospital, and his godmother (who was 25 at the time) is a Sister, and probably the most caring, forgiving person i know. She worked there for 50 years, at a school/hospital used by christians and muslims, operated by all three religions. The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. The school/hospital was also expulsed, quite recently (2018 i think), with promises for "help" with relocation. Promise from the Israeli government. The staff is halved, as most workers couldn't follow the relocation. I went there once (family trip, except my father was forbidden to enter at the last moment). I discovered Haaretz, which is now my primary source for what happen in Israel. When they agree with Netanyahou, i believe him (and now re-read the 1rst sentence :) ).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - rendall 3y ago
      > The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. That sucks. What was the legal justification for it? I assume he tried to go to court and got no justice? > "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. I have to admit, when I read this, I assumed it was more of the same and so I was almost too quick to dismiss the rest of your post. I'm glad I didn't. So, given your experience, when the IDF says they are not targeting civilians and that Hamas is using them as human shields, do you think they are lying and are actually targeting civilians? Or just being reckless?
cempaka 3y ago
What is an example of a call to "genocide 'Zionists' " which you have observed? Every example I have seen just amounts to a mistaken or dishonest interpretation of "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" or the term "Intifada."
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  "globalize the intifada" has to mean the genocide of Jews. How could it mean anything else? "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is at least up for debate, but any amount of thought would quickly lead to conclusion that the jews living in Israel would be genocided if that happened. There is no realistic scenario where palestinians and israelis live together in peace, any call for a one state solution necessarily includes the killing of the side that doesnt control the government.
  - rendall 3y ago
    My theory is that when Westerners, especially Americans, hear "Free Palestine" what resonates is "Free Tibet", or Martin Luther King Jr intoning "Free at last!", or "Free South Africa". They imagine Free means sovereignty, independence, peace, freedom to pursue happiness. How can one not get behind that?? "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will enjoy peace, freedom, prosperity, tolerance, ease, high quality of life, individual autonomy, diversity!" It sounds wonderful!
  - cempaka 3y ago
    There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision

orwin 3y ago

I think the issue is ignoring that a big part of the criticism of Israel is not actually a criticism of Israel, but criticisms of post Sharon government (or post Rabin for true leftists). We know who propped up, armed and supported Hamas in Gaza. Also, yes, actual urls of people throwing insults like this are more than welcome. Hopefully if they're down voted enough they'll be banned.

rendall 3y ago
> a big part of the criticism of Israel is not actually a criticism of Israel I wish I could bring myself to believe that. I'm trying to understand why so many just reflexively assume Israel is lying, to the point that raising any mitigating or nuance at all is met with relentless, seething hostility. Here we go, cavalcade of nastiness. In response to "My condolences" to a poster who said that he knew some of the children who died in the October 7th attack: "this person is lying..." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38577765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38577765 "Maybe you're not a white supremacist but you sure act like one like all Israeli allies" Added bonus is that he tracked down my full name and used it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38581383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38581383 "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38591023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38591023 In response to my saying that yes, actually anti-Semitism means anti-Jew: "Ask me how I know you're Jewish" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38585503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38585503 There's more, but that's enough for now.
- orwin 3y ago
  "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. Typically i think, he isn't blaming Israelis or Jews, but Israel as in "Israel's government policy of bombing children". The others are from people i hope are banned. >I wish I could bring myself to believe that. The reason i said "a big part" and not "a majority", is because sadly i think what was a majority in 2007 declined in the last 13 years. My father cried when Rabin died. Since 2018 and what happened to the mosque esplanade, i think he has a hard time making any difference between the government and the people of Israel ([edit] i convinced him this weekend it wasn't). > I'm trying to understand why so many just reflexively assume Israel is lying, to the point that raising any mitigating or nuance at all is met with relentless, seething hostility. I always assume Israeli government is lying. Why? My father was born in Jerusalem-east, in a christian hospital, and his godmother (who was 25 at the time) is a Sister, and probably the most caring, forgiving person i know. She worked there for 50 years, at a school/hospital used by christians and muslims, operated by all three religions. The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. The school/hospital was also expulsed, quite recently (2018 i think), with promises for "help" with relocation. Promise from the Israeli government. The staff is halved, as most workers couldn't follow the relocation. I went there once (family trip, except my father was forbidden to enter at the last moment). I discovered Haaretz, which is now my primary source for what happen in Israel. When they agree with Netanyahou, i believe him (and now re-read the 1rst sentence :) ).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rendall 3y ago
    > The man who woodcarved my father's nativity scene, one piece a year for 18 years, was expulsed from his own home in the 2000s, by colons. That sucks. What was the legal justification for it? I assume he tried to go to court and got no justice? > "Blaming Hamas is the mark of a seriously disturbed mind" Is missing a lot of context. I have to admit, when I read this, I assumed it was more of the same and so I was almost too quick to dismiss the rest of your post. I'm glad I didn't. So, given your experience, when the IDF says they are not targeting civilians and that Hamas is using them as human shields, do you think they are lying and are actually targeting civilians? Or just being reckless?

cempaka 3y ago

What is an example of a call to "genocide 'Zionists' " which you have observed? Every example I have seen just amounts to a mistaken or dishonest interpretation of "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" or the term "Intifada."

HDThoreaun 3y ago
"globalize the intifada" has to mean the genocide of Jews. How could it mean anything else? "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is at least up for debate, but any amount of thought would quickly lead to conclusion that the jews living in Israel would be genocided if that happened. There is no realistic scenario where palestinians and israelis live together in peace, any call for a one state solution necessarily includes the killing of the side that doesnt control the government.
- rendall 3y ago
  My theory is that when Westerners, especially Americans, hear "Free Palestine" what resonates is "Free Tibet", or Martin Luther King Jr intoning "Free at last!", or "Free South Africa". They imagine Free means sovereignty, independence, peace, freedom to pursue happiness. How can one not get behind that?? "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will enjoy peace, freedom, prosperity, tolerance, ease, high quality of life, individual autonomy, diversity!" It sounds wonderful!
- cempaka 3y ago
  There's certainly more than a little projection at work in this insistence that the only way to establish a free sovereign state is to commit genocide against one group or another.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    There's certainly more than a little naivety at work in this insistence that israelis and palestinians could somehow live together without killing each other. I think a two state solution is possible, but there is absolutely no chance of a one state solution that doesnt involve kicking out one of the two groups. This misunderstanding is the whole issue here, people calling for a one state solution have no vision of what the state would actually look like. "oh they'll just live together in peace and forget about their utter hatred of each other" is not a realistic vision