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How does a technical gas supplier factor into the life of today's teenagers? I'm genuinely curious. Is our hypothetical 12yo person learning tig welding on a si

How does a technical gas supplier factor into the life of today's teenagers? I'm genuinely curious. Is our hypothetical 12yo person learning tig welding on a side?

mschuster91 3y ago
Same as sniffing glue... nitrogen aka N2O aka laughing gas.
strken 3y ago
Nitrous oxide is a popular inhalant. It's reasonably safe despite the usual hysterical claims, and it's unregulated in most countries, possibly because regulating it would drive users towards more harmful inhalants like glue and petrol.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  It's not safe at all. In my country there are many people who have destroyed their brains using it. I would say even drugs like cocaine are safer.
  - kuschku 3y ago
    It's just as safe as choking yourself, the gas itself isn't causing any damage, but the oxygen deprivation may. That's already an improvement over many other drugs, where the active ingredient is actively harmful.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - strken 3y ago
    It's comparatively safe. See e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301. Cocaine is a very dangerous drug both because of its physical effects - cardiac issues, stroke, seizure - as well as its effect on risktaking. In order to "destroy your brain" using nitrous you need to take heroic quantities of it and get hypoxia: from memory somewhere near a hundred times the typical dose is required, and it must be maintained over a long period of redosing. For more dangerous drugs, that multiple is lower: heroin can be lethal at 1.4x the typical dose. It is wrong to claim it's an especially dangerous drug, particularly if your evidence is an anecdote about "many people who have destroyed their brains" in a nameless country based on no quantitative evidence and citing no personal experience.
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      You don't seem to know the most basic reason why it is so dangerous, it's not hypoxia. The problem is that it oxidizes vitamin B12 which leads to demyelination and is neurotoxic even in a single dose(Although the harm seems to be reversible in that case). This is what causes the neurological symptoms. Personally I would much rather die from a heartattack or a stroke then never walk again.
      - strken 3y ago
        Give me a source for B12 deficiency being serious enough that it's comparable to the health risks associated with cocaine, of all drugs. All the reports I'm aware of involve extreme levels of daily use, e.g. https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreational_nitrous_oxide_abuse_causing_b12.60.aspx https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreatio... ("75-100 canisters daily"). The idea that a single dose will oxidise enough B12 to be clinically significant is not supported by evidence, it's something you've made up, unless you're claiming a dose is made up of 75-100 canisters. Personally I would rather compare the actual incident rates of side effects from drugs than make a false choice between the most extreme symptoms, particularly when one of them is a common and relatively safe form of anesthesia.
        rowanG077 3y ago
        First off. It's really not nice throwing out terms like "it's something you've made up". But anyway here are some pointers why I think that Nitrous oxide is worse then cocaine, these are stats from the Netherlands because that's where I did the research: A single dose shows traceable, but reverseable, neurotoxic effects in rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452203006304 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064... > Our findings demonstrate that short-term exposure of adult rats to N2O causes injury to PC/RSC neurons that is rapidly reversible, and prolonged N2O exposure causes neuronal cell death. In the Netherlands the lower bound of people with paralysis, such as beeing unable to walk due to the effects of using Nitrous oxide is 64 in 2020. And that is by querying a subset of hospitals. These are indeed extreme usage cases. You also don't get a heart attack from snorting a few lines of coke. https://nos.nl/artikel/2338520-64-mensen-met-gedeeltelijke-dwarslaesie-door-gebruik-van-lachgas https://nos.nl/artikel/2338520-64-mensen-met-gedeeltelijke-d... This is much more then the yearly reported deaths for cocaine in the Netherlands. Which is reported to be 38 https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/hoe-vaak-gaat-er-iemand-fout-op-cocaine/ https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/hoe-vaak-gaat-er-iema.... If you compare the number of users in the netherlands you can see the picture how bad it actually is: - Cocaine had 230k users in 2020 - Nitrous oxide had 290k users in 2020 https://www.trimbos.nl/actueel/nieuws/dit-zijn-de-opvallendste-nieuwe-kerncijfers-over-drugsgebruik-onder-nederlanders/#:~:text=Sinds%202016%20ligt%20het%20coca%C3%AFnegebruik,onder%20mannen%2C%20jongvolwassenen%20en%20hoogopgeleiden https://www.trimbos.nl/actueel/nieuws/dit-zijn-de-opvallends.... This means you are much more likely to get paralysed by Nitrous oxide usage then you are to die from cocaine. It's definitely not a good idea to label NO2 as a safe drug.
- raffraffraff 3y ago
  And those empty canisters are everywhere, thrown around parks and playgrounds
- nradov 3y ago
  Nitrous oxide is certainly less harmful than many recreational drugs but it can cause nerve damage in some chronic users. https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with-nerve-damage-from-nitrous-oxide-use-are-most-likely-to-be-asian-men.html https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with...

How does a technical gas supplier factor into the life of today's teenagers? I'm genuinely curious. Is our hypothetical 12yo person learning tig welding on a side?

mschuster91 3y ago

Same as sniffing glue... nitrogen aka N2O aka laughing gas.

strken 3y ago

Nitrous oxide is a popular inhalant. It's reasonably safe despite the usual hysterical claims, and it's unregulated in most countries, possibly because regulating it would drive users towards more harmful inhalants like glue and petrol.

rowanG077 3y ago
It's not safe at all. In my country there are many people who have destroyed their brains using it. I would say even drugs like cocaine are safer.
- kuschku 3y ago
  It's just as safe as choking yourself, the gas itself isn't causing any damage, but the oxygen deprivation may. That's already an improvement over many other drugs, where the active ingredient is actively harmful.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- strken 3y ago
  It's comparatively safe. See e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301. Cocaine is a very dangerous drug both because of its physical effects - cardiac issues, stroke, seizure - as well as its effect on risktaking. In order to "destroy your brain" using nitrous you need to take heroic quantities of it and get hypoxia: from memory somewhere near a hundred times the typical dose is required, and it must be maintained over a long period of redosing. For more dangerous drugs, that multiple is lower: heroin can be lethal at 1.4x the typical dose. It is wrong to claim it's an especially dangerous drug, particularly if your evidence is an anecdote about "many people who have destroyed their brains" in a nameless country based on no quantitative evidence and citing no personal experience.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    You don't seem to know the most basic reason why it is so dangerous, it's not hypoxia. The problem is that it oxidizes vitamin B12 which leads to demyelination and is neurotoxic even in a single dose(Although the harm seems to be reversible in that case). This is what causes the neurological symptoms. Personally I would much rather die from a heartattack or a stroke then never walk again.
    - strken 3y ago
      Give me a source for B12 deficiency being serious enough that it's comparable to the health risks associated with cocaine, of all drugs. All the reports I'm aware of involve extreme levels of daily use, e.g. https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreational_nitrous_oxide_abuse_causing_b12.60.aspx https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreatio... ("75-100 canisters daily"). The idea that a single dose will oxidise enough B12 to be clinically significant is not supported by evidence, it's something you've made up, unless you're claiming a dose is made up of 75-100 canisters. Personally I would rather compare the actual incident rates of side effects from drugs than make a false choice between the most extreme symptoms, particularly when one of them is a common and relatively safe form of anesthesia.
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        First off. It's really not nice throwing out terms like "it's something you've made up". But anyway here are some pointers why I think that Nitrous oxide is worse then cocaine, these are stats from the Netherlands because that's where I did the research: A single dose shows traceable, but reverseable, neurotoxic effects in rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452203006304 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064... > Our findings demonstrate that short-term exposure of adult rats to N2O causes injury to PC/RSC neurons that is rapidly reversible, and prolonged N2O exposure causes neuronal cell death. In the Netherlands the lower bound of people with paralysis, such as beeing unable to walk due to the effects of using Nitrous oxide is 64 in 2020. And that is by querying a subset of hospitals. These are indeed extreme usage cases. You also don't get a heart attack from snorting a few lines of coke. https://nos.nl/artikel/2338520-64-mensen-met-gedeeltelijke-dwarslaesie-door-gebruik-van-lachgas https://nos.nl/artikel/2338520-64-mensen-met-gedeeltelijke-d... This is much more then the yearly reported deaths for cocaine in the Netherlands. Which is reported to be 38 https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/hoe-vaak-gaat-er-iemand-fout-op-cocaine/ https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/hoe-vaak-gaat-er-iema.... If you compare the number of users in the netherlands you can see the picture how bad it actually is: - Cocaine had 230k users in 2020 - Nitrous oxide had 290k users in 2020 https://www.trimbos.nl/actueel/nieuws/dit-zijn-de-opvallendste-nieuwe-kerncijfers-over-drugsgebruik-onder-nederlanders/#:~:text=Sinds%202016%20ligt%20het%20coca%C3%AFnegebruik,onder%20mannen%2C%20jongvolwassenen%20en%20hoogopgeleiden https://www.trimbos.nl/actueel/nieuws/dit-zijn-de-opvallends.... This means you are much more likely to get paralysed by Nitrous oxide usage then you are to die from cocaine. It's definitely not a good idea to label NO2 as a safe drug.
raffraffraff 3y ago
And those empty canisters are everywhere, thrown around parks and playgrounds
nradov 3y ago
Nitrous oxide is certainly less harmful than many recreational drugs but it can cause nerve damage in some chronic users. https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with-nerve-damage-from-nitrous-oxide-use-are-most-likely-to-be-asian-men.html https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with...