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People are driving spaceship-sized SUVs while using their phones, hitting pedestrians who are walking around looking at their phones, jumping out of the path of

People are driving spaceship-sized SUVs while using their phones, hitting pedestrians who are walking around looking at their phones, jumping out of the path of an oncoming 12yo doing 40kmh on a battery powered scooter while looking at porn on their phones and using Whatsapp to schedule a meet up with their Fastgas supplier. Their parents think that a scooter is a toy, the phone is so that they can call home, and the money was for lunch. Yeah, kinda half joking, in the sense that these 3 hypothetical people don't actually crash into each other every day, but they all exist. I see them every day. I've also seen a huge rise in cyclists on the footpath (sidewalk), and it's so normalized that I had a guy in his 50s zoom up behind me and the wife and actually tell us to get out of the way. To say that he got called all the things I could possibly call him is an understatement.

Roark66 3y ago
How does a technical gas supplier factor into the life of today's teenagers? I'm genuinely curious. Is our hypothetical 12yo person learning tig welding on a side?
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Same as sniffing glue... nitrogen aka N2O aka laughing gas.
- strken 3y ago
  Nitrous oxide is a popular inhalant. It's reasonably safe despite the usual hysterical claims, and it's unregulated in most countries, possibly because regulating it would drive users towards more harmful inhalants like glue and petrol.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    It's not safe at all. In my country there are many people who have destroyed their brains using it. I would say even drugs like cocaine are safer.
    - kuschku 3y ago
      It's just as safe as choking yourself, the gas itself isn't causing any damage, but the oxygen deprivation may. That's already an improvement over many other drugs, where the active ingredient is actively harmful.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - strken 3y ago
      It's comparatively safe. See e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301. Cocaine is a very dangerous drug both because of its physical effects - cardiac issues, stroke, seizure - as well as its effect on risktaking. In order to "destroy your brain" using nitrous you need to take heroic quantities of it and get hypoxia: from memory somewhere near a hundred times the typical dose is required, and it must be maintained over a long period of redosing. For more dangerous drugs, that multiple is lower: heroin can be lethal at 1.4x the typical dose. It is wrong to claim it's an especially dangerous drug, particularly if your evidence is an anecdote about "many people who have destroyed their brains" in a nameless country based on no quantitative evidence and citing no personal experience.
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        You don't seem to know the most basic reason why it is so dangerous, it's not hypoxia. The problem is that it oxidizes vitamin B12 which leads to demyelination and is neurotoxic even in a single dose(Although the harm seems to be reversible in that case). This is what causes the neurological symptoms. Personally I would much rather die from a heartattack or a stroke then never walk again.
        strken 3y ago
        Give me a source for B12 deficiency being serious enough that it's comparable to the health risks associated with cocaine, of all drugs. All the reports I'm aware of involve extreme levels of daily use, e.g. https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreational_nitrous_oxide_abuse_causing_b12.60.aspx https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreatio... ("75-100 canisters daily"). The idea that a single dose will oxidise enough B12 to be clinically significant is not supported by evidence, it's something you've made up, unless you're claiming a dose is made up of 75-100 canisters. Personally I would rather compare the actual incident rates of side effects from drugs than make a false choice between the most extreme symptoms, particularly when one of them is a common and relatively safe form of anesthesia.
  - raffraffraff 3y ago
    And those empty canisters are everywhere, thrown around parks and playgrounds
  - nradov 3y ago
    Nitrous oxide is certainly less harmful than many recreational drugs but it can cause nerve damage in some chronic users. https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with-nerve-damage-from-nitrous-oxide-use-are-most-likely-to-be-asian-men.html https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with...
davedx 3y ago
In the Netherlands ebikes are a game changer because many people can now commute between cities on a bike (bike lanes are alongside motorways too). But they are so fast! There’s been an increase in dangerous accidents with them, particularly among the older generations. Electrification is great but it has risks too.
- raffraffraff 3y ago
  Most of the kids I see on scooters and bikes aren't legal. I have no idea where the kids are getting them because they're not "pedelec". You push a button and accelerate up to 40kmh. They're essentially electric mopeds and they require a driving license here (and anywhere in the EU I believe) which makes them illegal for under 16s to ride them.
- himinlomax 3y ago
  Legal ebikes in the EU stop their electrical motor at 25 km/h. You can go faster, but only as much as you would with a regular bike, ie by pedaling. Therefore ebikes are not the problem as such, illegal vehicles are the problem.
  - davedx 3y ago
    It's still fast for cycle paths where everyone is accustomed to people cycling manually, and it's definitely not just illegal vehicles. See: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/voorlopige-cijfers-laten-meer-verkeersongevallen-met-e-bikes-zien/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/voorlopige-cijfers-laten-... > In 2022, at least 578 road accidents killed at least one, in 2019 there were 522. The number of accidents with at least one injured person has also increased considerably: in 2019 there were 18,298, in 2022 no less than 21,455. According to the police, the e-bike appears to play a greater role, especially with people over fifty. The figures do not necessarily mean that cyclists on an e-bike caused the accident, but it is important to see where the increase comes from.
    - raffraffraff 3y ago
      I've been cycling for 45 years, and I don't think that the addition of a small pedal-assist motor has changed my cycling style at all. I'm just willing to take on 100km journeys or mountain roads that I previously considered to be too much effort. My speed also hasn't changed that much either, unless you're looking at my uphill speed. But the arrival of relatively cheap ebikes has changed the demographics of cycling in a very short time. Lots of people with little-to-no road experience or etiquette are now zipping around at up to 25kmh. These will definitely appear as a spike on the accident graph, but for pedelec I'd expect that to drop a little over time. However I still think that pure throttle bikes and scooters that can exceed 25kmh are dangerous though. Particularly the scooter which has the image of a "toy" to a lot of people. I'm really not kidding when I say that I've seen 10 year olds on serious scooters, reaching 40kmh on walkways. That's always gonna be a problem.
screye 3y ago
To be fair, the responsibility to not-kill lies squarely at the hands of SUV drivers. SUV -> human/scooter collision is the only one that leads to fatalities. Also remember, we have infrastructure for cars, but very little for pedestrians or cyclists. Cyclists don't want to be on the road. They're much rather be on grade-separated bike paths. I don't endorse cyclists on footpaths, but in a lot of cities it is legal if the road not have adequate bike infrastructure. Similarly, if pedestrians are walking on a green, they should be able to be on their phones. I do not endorse that behavior, but it is not like they are responsible for coming under death machine driven by another driver. Your comment appears to distribute the blame across all 3 people. But 1 of these is 2 orders of magnitude more to blame than the other 2. _____ I do agree that any going at car speed (Motorized scooters, Lycra-clad racers) belong where cars are: the road. A helmet can only do so much if you face plant at 50 kmph. Anything that can go above 30 kmph on a flat, belongs on a road.

Roark66 3y ago

How does a technical gas supplier factor into the life of today's teenagers? I'm genuinely curious. Is our hypothetical 12yo person learning tig welding on a side?

mschuster91 3y ago
Same as sniffing glue... nitrogen aka N2O aka laughing gas.
strken 3y ago
Nitrous oxide is a popular inhalant. It's reasonably safe despite the usual hysterical claims, and it's unregulated in most countries, possibly because regulating it would drive users towards more harmful inhalants like glue and petrol.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  It's not safe at all. In my country there are many people who have destroyed their brains using it. I would say even drugs like cocaine are safer.
  - kuschku 3y ago
    It's just as safe as choking yourself, the gas itself isn't causing any damage, but the oxygen deprivation may. That's already an improvement over many other drugs, where the active ingredient is actively harmful.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - strken 3y ago
    It's comparatively safe. See e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20503245221127301. Cocaine is a very dangerous drug both because of its physical effects - cardiac issues, stroke, seizure - as well as its effect on risktaking. In order to "destroy your brain" using nitrous you need to take heroic quantities of it and get hypoxia: from memory somewhere near a hundred times the typical dose is required, and it must be maintained over a long period of redosing. For more dangerous drugs, that multiple is lower: heroin can be lethal at 1.4x the typical dose. It is wrong to claim it's an especially dangerous drug, particularly if your evidence is an anecdote about "many people who have destroyed their brains" in a nameless country based on no quantitative evidence and citing no personal experience.
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      You don't seem to know the most basic reason why it is so dangerous, it's not hypoxia. The problem is that it oxidizes vitamin B12 which leads to demyelination and is neurotoxic even in a single dose(Although the harm seems to be reversible in that case). This is what causes the neurological symptoms. Personally I would much rather die from a heartattack or a stroke then never walk again.
      - strken 3y ago
        Give me a source for B12 deficiency being serious enough that it's comparable to the health risks associated with cocaine, of all drugs. All the reports I'm aware of involve extreme levels of daily use, e.g. https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreational_nitrous_oxide_abuse_causing_b12.60.aspx https://journals.lww.com/jfmpc/fulltext/2020/09110/recreatio... ("75-100 canisters daily"). The idea that a single dose will oxidise enough B12 to be clinically significant is not supported by evidence, it's something you've made up, unless you're claiming a dose is made up of 75-100 canisters. Personally I would rather compare the actual incident rates of side effects from drugs than make a false choice between the most extreme symptoms, particularly when one of them is a common and relatively safe form of anesthesia.
- raffraffraff 3y ago
  And those empty canisters are everywhere, thrown around parks and playgrounds
- nradov 3y ago
  Nitrous oxide is certainly less harmful than many recreational drugs but it can cause nerve damage in some chronic users. https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with-nerve-damage-from-nitrous-oxide-use-are-most-likely-to-be-asian-men.html https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2023/smd/young-people-with...

davedx 3y ago

In the Netherlands ebikes are a game changer because many people can now commute between cities on a bike (bike lanes are alongside motorways too). But they are so fast! There’s been an increase in dangerous accidents with them, particularly among the older generations. Electrification is great but it has risks too.

raffraffraff 3y ago
Most of the kids I see on scooters and bikes aren't legal. I have no idea where the kids are getting them because they're not "pedelec". You push a button and accelerate up to 40kmh. They're essentially electric mopeds and they require a driving license here (and anywhere in the EU I believe) which makes them illegal for under 16s to ride them.
himinlomax 3y ago
Legal ebikes in the EU stop their electrical motor at 25 km/h. You can go faster, but only as much as you would with a regular bike, ie by pedaling. Therefore ebikes are not the problem as such, illegal vehicles are the problem.
- davedx 3y ago
  It's still fast for cycle paths where everyone is accustomed to people cycling manually, and it's definitely not just illegal vehicles. See: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/voorlopige-cijfers-laten-meer-verkeersongevallen-met-e-bikes-zien/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/nieuws/voorlopige-cijfers-laten-... > In 2022, at least 578 road accidents killed at least one, in 2019 there were 522. The number of accidents with at least one injured person has also increased considerably: in 2019 there were 18,298, in 2022 no less than 21,455. According to the police, the e-bike appears to play a greater role, especially with people over fifty. The figures do not necessarily mean that cyclists on an e-bike caused the accident, but it is important to see where the increase comes from.
  - raffraffraff 3y ago
    I've been cycling for 45 years, and I don't think that the addition of a small pedal-assist motor has changed my cycling style at all. I'm just willing to take on 100km journeys or mountain roads that I previously considered to be too much effort. My speed also hasn't changed that much either, unless you're looking at my uphill speed. But the arrival of relatively cheap ebikes has changed the demographics of cycling in a very short time. Lots of people with little-to-no road experience or etiquette are now zipping around at up to 25kmh. These will definitely appear as a spike on the accident graph, but for pedelec I'd expect that to drop a little over time. However I still think that pure throttle bikes and scooters that can exceed 25kmh are dangerous though. Particularly the scooter which has the image of a "toy" to a lot of people. I'm really not kidding when I say that I've seen 10 year olds on serious scooters, reaching 40kmh on walkways. That's always gonna be a problem.

screye 3y ago

To be fair, the responsibility to not-kill lies squarely at the hands of SUV drivers. SUV -> human/scooter collision is the only one that leads to fatalities. Also remember, we have infrastructure for cars, but very little for pedestrians or cyclists. Cyclists don't want to be on the road. They're much rather be on grade-separated bike paths. I don't endorse cyclists on footpaths, but in a lot of cities it is legal if the road not have adequate bike infrastructure. Similarly, if pedestrians are walking on a green, they should be able to be on their phones. I do not endorse that behavior, but it is not like they are responsible for coming under death machine driven by another driver. Your comment appears to distribute the blame across all 3 people. But 1 of these is 2 orders of magnitude more to blame than the other 2. _____ I do agree that any going at car speed (Motorized scooters, Lycra-clad racers) belong where cars are: the road. A helmet can only do so much if you face plant at 50 kmph. Anything that can go above 30 kmph on a flat, belongs on a road.